***This series is Rated PG-13***Of NOTE.
This series confronts the shadows of pornography with the light of candid conversation, as we traverse the complex terrain of its impact on race, culture, and faith.
Throughout this discussion, we share not only facts and statistics but also our personal insights and biblical perspectives on the matter. We grapple with the uncomfortable truth of pornography's ubiquity and the rationalizations that often accompany its consumption. With unflinching honesty, we examine the sin of viewing pornography from a Christian standpoint, discussing its contradictions to God's love and the nature of human dignity. We also highlight the profound ways in which this sin, like many others, weaves itself into the fabric of society and questions the shifting perceptions and potential long-term effects on our culture.
Join us as we explore these significant questions and reflect on how we can align our values amidst a changing world.
Thanks for Listening! Follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
***This series is Rated PG-13***Of NOTE.
This series confronts the shadows of pornography with the light of candid conversation, as we traverse the complex terrain of its impact on race, culture, and faith.
Throughout this discussion, we share not only facts and statistics but also our personal insights and biblical perspectives on the matter. We grapple with the uncomfortable truth of pornography's ubiquity and the rationalizations that often accompany its consumption. With unflinching honesty, we examine the sin of viewing pornography from a Christian standpoint, discussing its contradictions to God's love and the nature of human dignity. We also highlight the profound ways in which this sin, like many others, weaves itself into the fabric of society and questions the shifting perceptions and potential long-term effects on our culture.
Join us as we explore these significant questions and reflect on how we can align our values amidst a changing world.
Thanks for Listening! Follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Hey and welcome to another episode of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We're getting ready to enter into a series and no lie, this series, if you've already seen the title, is one that is not pleasant and there's really no way around it. But you cannot talk about race and culture, and that aspect specifically of culture, without talking about the sad reality of pornography. And so at the very outset of the episode, we make it very clear that this material will probably be rated PG 13 ish or some type of level. There's no reason to be overly obnoxious, there's no reason for us to be overly graphic when it's not necessary, but we do want to have liberty to have the discussion, and so from the beginning we make sure that. That's well aware. You're well aware of that, and so if you listen to it very openly, it might be very awkward if you're listening while washing the car and just so your neighbors are listening to I'm just throwing it out there as we begin.
Speaker 1:So, because it's such a sour topic, let's talk about something that's very light and sweet, in the beginning by a silly question, and then we'll get into that heavier part. All right, aaron, anton, here's the question that I have. So I'll start thinking something sweet, something just you know, things that we cannot have a debate over in the very beginning. And what is your favorite or was your favorite childhood candy? And then your favorite candy now, maybe it's the same one, maybe it's not changed, or just your favorite candy as a kid and the favorite candy. So something sweet, literally sweet, before we begin to talk about the other areas. So, aaron, starting with you favorite childhood candy and then moving on.
Speaker 2:I'll say, growing up it was probably a finger. Yeah, I did love some butterfingers, but I feel like they changed over time, so maybe it's just me that's changed by that little that inside texture about hard or rot these days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like Burger King. It used to be good and no one, so I guess me and me something we can debate about. No, I'm just kidding. So my current one would probably be I like the speckled that jelly beans not spiced, but speckled jelly beans right now they're they're my jam. I can go through a whole bag of them, and so I need self control in that area.
Speaker 1:I guess that's it the jelly beans Mom used to do like speckled yeah that was mom's thing. Mom always got the speckled jelly eggs, jelly jelly bean eggs, and then at Valentine's she'd always get the heartbreakers and, like no one was ever allowed to have any, she bought her bag. It was her Anta. What about you? Candy then, candy now.
Speaker 3:I'm probably hot tamales.
Speaker 1:That's right, he's not tamales. People used to always buy you those. I remember that.
Speaker 3:Now it's probably a Toblerone.
Speaker 1:Oh booji.
Speaker 2:I've never had one of those, they're good man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like Toblerone, so I like this, I'm good chocolate, and then that's that switch. It's that Swiss chocolate, isn't it? Or something like that. Yes, but growing up for me it was a Snickers bar, that was my thing. And then I, and now I have come to the point where I don't really do a lot of candy but, and so if my kids ever see a piece of candy, it's some candy in the house.
Speaker 1:It's almost like a I don't know what the word is, just a very strong indicator that if I have a pack of peanut M&Ms that is getting ready to go for a flight Because that is that's before I go for any airplane ride I'm like I got to get a bag of M&Ms, you know. So peanut M&Ms, I would say, since they don't eat it, eat a ton is definitely that. But if you put it inside the Blizzard, no way, only Butterfinger. And then Oreos, that's the only thing, and Reese's peanut butter cups and one thing belonging to Blizzard Peanut M&Ms. I think in some ways I'm turning into mom, because that was another one of her things. It was chocolate, anything, chocolate covered peanuts or anything like that. So, anyway, just some fun candies. I wonder why they change as we got over. Well, anton got bougie, but I don't know about Aaron. Why did they change?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I feel like it's like everything that changes nowadays. It's like I mean even Sonic Drive-In. It's like used to be. You go get a drink from there. Now it's like I don't want anything to do with this, honey, but that's just where I'm at here.
Speaker 1:You sound quite bitter against the fast food industry.
Speaker 2:I am bitter against the fast food industry. People always like why do you like Chick-fil-A so much? And like the reason I like Chick-fil-A is because Chick-fil-A is consistent. That's really. All I'm asking for is consistency. If it's going to be, if the sweet tea is going to taste like this, I don't want to walk in one time and pay $2 for a sweet tea and it's disgusting. And then the next time I'm walking, it's like oh, that's really good. Like just give me the consistent. If it's going to be nasty, just be nasty all the time. I'm cool with that. Let's just call it what it is and move on. So I feel like the same thing with all lots of things. Growing up, butterfinger used to be like give me the same old taste, that's why I bought it, that's why I keep eating it. But when you change it because you think you're doing something great, it's like I don't want it anymore.
Speaker 1:I'll say back when Burger King changed their recipe for their fries, and then it changed and went downhill from there. But anyway, well, just some interesting little tidbits before we get started into the real part of the conversation. As I said, something that's sweet before you get to something that is sour. As we get started this conversation, let me make a couple of preface comments, and Aaron and Antank can make any preface comments as well. This is definitely not going to be handled in one episode, nor do we want to belabor it to go over multiple, multiple, multiple episodes, but we're thinking at the current time that we should be able to cover this topic in three episodes. With that being said, you know sometimes, when the topic of pornography does come up, that the, as we define and then we go through the effect of culture, that sometimes it can be believed that we're using this as a tactic to shame people. Whatever that your past has been, whatever current battle you may find yourself in, this is not a platform, at least for my motivation. You know, my motivation is not necessarily to shame a person into now doing something, because guilt is a terrible motivator. A guilt, can you know, obviously, if a godly sorrow, it can lead us to repentance. However, if it's not leads to repentance, it's not helpful and we're not trying to be part of a shaming aspect of the matter, because obviously God gives grace and he provides grace. However, just with anything else, though, just because something has terrible roots and has affected our culture in this way, we are still not going to give it a patch. It's because it has had such a large reaching effect. We do want to go through today, specifically, I guess in this pornography part one, I guess the idea that would be the porn demographic is be the subtitle, because we really want to analyze the effect has had and the growth that we have seen with pornography, especially as it relates to the pandemic. With that being said, with those preface statements, we definitely desire to, you know, not belabor it, but we also decide to define it and go through it. And also, it's not the idea is not to shame to a certain opinion, to be like feel bad enough, all right with what is taking place and such and such or whatever season of life person may be in, but truly we do hope to get to the last with the tips and tools as we close any series out, to be able to find there's victory that can be had, but we have to lay some groundwork first. So, with that being said, any preface comments Aaron Anton, before we even get into this discussion. Hello, sir, nope, okay, well, let's jump into the intro.
Speaker 1:We understand that words are important and so, since words are immensely important, the definitions. When we are going to talk about a word, pornography, it obviously has a lot of different people have different pictures of what they imagine pornography to be Obviously, the instant of bad, the instantaneous thought of all that's erotic, or any other words that can be used. We need to get a working definition of exactly, broadly speaking, what pornography is, one that definition that works in every context of conversation that we are going to be having throughout this time. When you just look it up, it just basically. Here's a definition that I have found would be any material that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement. That is what the definition just by itself, the legal definition, to my understanding as well, of what pornography is, additions, subtractions, anything like that that y'all want to make as we sit here at first off with any topic, to break down what, the definition of exactly what is pornography.
Speaker 3:Did you say depictions? I'm sorry to hear the beginning.
Speaker 1:Any material that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement. So, with that being said, I know this is going to get a little bit philosophical, but I do think it's important for later on. An assertion that might be made but usually think of pornography as looking at naked women. That's what it is, looking at naked women. But wouldn't any type of material that would then make it that erotic behavior to cause a sexual satisfaction? The idea even from Matthew about looked on a woman to lust after her like. The point is to look on what sexual satisfaction to be able to then take something that is out there that was, in this case, an image bear and then use that as a launching board for a sexual desire. So wouldn't it be, even would it be accurate then to say that you know pornography, just not just through the eye gate, it could even be through the ear. Pornography can be any way of getting to a point of exciting sexual behavior within an individual. Does it only have to be by sight, aaron, your thoughts upon that?
Speaker 2:Well, I was thinking while you're talking, I do would like to. I know you're you're using it as a illustration, like if pornography is looking at naked women, but I would say, in the day that we live, I feel like it's so much bigger than that when you start bringing in women and their view of pornography from the cultural side there, when you start thinking through gay pornography. So I just want to I think I know what you were saying, but I just wanted to open that up and just at least say it out loud that I think there's a lot more pieces to this than just that. Looking at naked women, any sense that arouses the lust, the sensual lust, I think it can go through any of those. So I mean, audible has a whole section of Erotica in it, so I believe it would have to be more than I, because obviously they're making money on it. Never listen to one, but I've seen that audible has a lot of them.
Speaker 1:That was interesting because the reason why I'm highlighting the ear is because you know, obviously we consume audio books, you know, and so therefore, why wouldn't it be that you consume audio porn? And with that being that the situation, I was listening to bark, which is a place that you know parents can go to look to stay in touch with. You know what's going on in certain apps or whatever it is, and one of the bark articles even listening how Spotify has its own dedicated area For audio porn, specifically to arouse sexual behavior. So, with that being said, and time any way, that we're not seeing it or any type of thing to add on to that.
Speaker 3:No, I agree. The only thing I would add is with books in general. So just erotica as a Platform. I know we're saying visual, but I think Included that visual. We have to talk about books as well, just regular.
Speaker 1:Just novels, straight up, whatever, baby, yeah, so, and and then, for clarity, earlier, aaron, when I was just saying looking at neck and women, I was saying that was like a generalized view. Yeah, how people look at it. However, you can take people, you know, scabby league clothes or whatever, or even there, just however, a person then Would then use another image bearer or whoever it is. In that case, you know, and again in the context of Matthew 5, if Jesus was talking to his disciples, so he was talking to men, and as he was talking to men, obviously it would make sense that he would then use the terminology Don't look after a woman, right at that sense, whether he was talking to them and just using that as an illustration. However, obviously we understand the broadness, because in first John it also is highlighted to you about the loss of the fleshless, of the pride of life and all these other blessed the eye, this overwhelming desire of lasciviousness and all that is also takes place as well. So obviously it's a condemnation upon all the things that Aaron had just mentioned Just earlier before. So, with that being said, with a working definition, anything then that Material that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement. Now, with that be said, let me just go through some the the reality of where pornography has and what is done to our culture. Just quick Statistics that I believe you know that I very much handpicked and, anton, I'm gonna be coming to you after I read statistics that I want to make sure you know, at least from us here, that we don't want to cherry pick right and I, as a were. Sometimes statistics can be able to say whatever you want them to say. So therefore, I want to be accountable and so I want you to then go through and just say hey, yay or nay to using these in the proper way.
Speaker 1:Speaking to the accessibility of pornography, pornography has, according to barnard statistics, has, more revenue than in the NFL, the NBA and the MLB combined. Because of that, since COVID remember that massive amount of revenue more than the NBA, nfl, all these owners, more than all of those three combined, the Revenue, still after COVID raise, was increased by 25 to 40 percent. It nearly doubled. During the time of COVID, the average age of first exposure to pornography was 11 years old. Currently, 18 year old to 24 year olds are the ones who are more likely to actively seek out porn, with ratings up to 57 percent. One and three Americans seek out pornography every single month. 59% of pastors said that Maryman come and seek help for porn directly. With that being said, we've we've looked at the church world, we looked at society, looked at all these different things. It's just a massive amount, anton cherry picked, or how do you view these statistics? Oh?
Speaker 3:No, I mean that those are the facts. I don't, I don't know how you. I don't mean to I'm careful.
Speaker 1:I'm just careful because I just want to make sure that it's not like a cherry pick. Well, oh, there's also an alternate way to be able to see it, or?
Speaker 3:anything. I don't know that there is. I think we're on the same page.
Speaker 1:All right, Aaron. Well, how about you I?
Speaker 2:agree, that's.
Speaker 1:That's the world we live in now, with that reality being said, like I don't, I don't want to walk around, like you know. Do you know how sometimes somebody has done something? Let's just say, somebody donated something Anomously at your church to you and so you like walk around church the next day. You're kind of like smiling at everybody because it could have been them, could have been them, you know. But you take that and have the emphasis of that scenario and when you're walking around, someone's done something mean to you, right, and then it's kind of like it could be you, we could have been you, it could have been you. Like I don't know, does this stat make you feel like one and three and watch poor, like, oh my goodness, like I just like, how do we just? Is this Does this stat affect your viewpoint upon humanity as a whole in the United States? Aaron?
Speaker 2:No, it really doesn't. I mean because we're sinners and I'm not trying to be make light of it, but I work with young adults. I've worked teenagers for a long time. I am myself in the sinful individual. So I would say, if sin is accessible, people will access it, and the more accessible it is, the more people will access it. And so I would say that when we start thinking through Even my conversation with young adults, I Would be surprised I'd honestly be surprised, as a young adult who told me they've never viewed porn, then to tell me that they did, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Hmm, I see.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe I'm looking at from a wrong perspective, so help me if I am.
Speaker 1:but oh, I mean, you're looking at it from. You know Fallen, you know we are falling in, not just they hold those people out there. No, we are fallen individuals and we are sexual beings and I guess, with that being said, it's just, you know, I guess it is a reality, but it's one of those things that is so unspoken and unsaid that until somebody's bold enough to be able to say it, then it's just kind of like I don't know, the word is ignored, it's not the right word, but it's just kind of like I don't just kind of part of life, anton, is that similar to what Aaron has said? Is that how you kind of view it? To?
Speaker 3:oh yeah, like again the numbers being what they are or are you reported to be.
Speaker 1:I would even even think that they're higher than what is actually, you know, and we say one of three, so that means one of three, thirty percent, right, or something to that effect is basically that's, that's the reality, right? Um, well, when we go through this topic so for me it was a surprise, but maybe for you guys it's not a big surprise, and that's the reason why, when we started on this first episode about the pandemic is I want to really then focus in for the second part of the question then to be like, okay, we strive at least don't say we nailed every time, but we strive at least to have a biblical, centered worldview about many of these things. And, with that being said, I've actually had and read behind other people who were encouraging young men and in the context of where I was talking right there, to look at pornography so that they could then basically, you know, get some of that sexual drive released, whether through masturbation, whether through whatever means necessary, so that they did not fornicate. And so, therefore, if pornography was then used as a tool for almost like a greater good, then you can then use that as it's almost like alcohol. Just use it responsibly. If you use it responsibly, then it's not dangerous or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:So, um, and this was even indicated in a survey that was done, and the survey showed that people say that not recycling is more immoral than viewing pornography. So I mean, obviously that might be a little bit cherry picked, because I'm like wondering like, come on, do we really? We're not there? Come on, we're not there. Are we really as a society? But apparently in some places, in some societies, at least on some level, we are there. So, with that being said, aaron, would you start with this? I'm just going to ask you straight straight up I mean, speak biblically, and I know this sounds so elementary, but I want you to show forth your answer and clear his turn as possible. But as viewing pornography a sin, is it wrong or not?
Speaker 2:Yes, viewing pornography as a sin. We started James. When you're drawn away of your own lust and entice that brings forth sin, and when my desires draw me away from what God's calling me to do, to respect image bears, as you said earlier, then yes, I believe that's a sin. Proverbs five what talking about? The wife or youth and the man, the simple man passing through and he begins to like what she looks through the window. He begins to walk through the temptation and it takes him farther than he wants to go. What is the Bible says is to bring him for a piece of bread. A man is man. I should have known a man is brought to a piece of bread.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yes. And so we start seeing those. I mean, ultimately I go one step farther and say that what it does to a woman is sinful and the objectification of someone who has made an image bear. But I would say, in the fact that if we are a random accident and we believe in evolution and this is not an evolutionary debate, not trying to make that, but I'm saying if we're a random accident, then it would. I could see the thought process that we would treat human beings without any value because we're just accidents. But if we are created beings, what pornography does to women is horrendous. What for for not even do to men is horrendous. And so when we start looking for sin, women's finished bringing forth death, do not air, so that sin is going to ultimately take us in a destination that we don't want to go, and I believe we're seeing that in our current culture, even having this conversation.
Speaker 1:Makes sense, anton, swinging it over to you as well. I know it seems to be elementary because of the way I've already described and we've gone through and had, you know, negative viewpoints already. But I'm just going to ask you straight up, and I speak clearly and speak biblically Is viewing pornography a sin? Is it wrong?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I'm not going to say anything's air and did so. I'll just cross up half my list, I would say also, just to kind of add to it. I think also viewing porn is also taking up the sin of slothfulness I think it's not being a good steward of your time, obviously being obviously it's adultery. The Bible says that clearly. I believe viewing pornography also leads to the sin of deceit because it requires people to lie to others. I believe it's also a sin against the Holy Spirit if you're a Christian, by knowing that consciousness that God has given you. I believe when you look at the first Thessalonians 4, I believe that you're committing the sin of greed, depending on what translation you look at. Greedily taken is used there as a while talking about sexual degeneracy, and I think porn in general is illegitimately using or commodifying someone else's body for your own pleasure, and I think that nothing can be more greedy and self-satisfying than that.
Speaker 1:And I want to reiterate what I said there at the beginning about the idea of shaming or anything like that. But this is just making sure that we understand this doesn't excuse the gross reality of what pornography is, and I do also have strong words for this matter of those who would then argue the fact of it then being okay in certain circumstances quote unquote used responsibly. But I believe pornography is completely antithetical to God's love, because God's love, when I was sitting here today and I saw my daughter playing with her toys she's not feeling well today and so she had a sin from school, so I sin from work as I'm watching her and she's playing with her Barbies or whatever it is and as she played with her Barbies, I was like man, I love my kid. I mean, you know there's a lot going on in my life right now. It's a lot of things I'm trying to change, whatever. But I thank God and I think about the love I have for my daughter and as I'm sitting here watching her doing what she's doing and it's just kind of like the love I have for you, her doesn't even compare to the love God has for me, right? And if that image bearer, every image bearer God loves right, just like I love it. God loves all of them.
Speaker 1:And to objectify any image bearer that God created pornography is against the very character and nature of who God is, as that he loves the image bears that he has created. And to then use that image bearer to be nothing more than an objectified being to be able to then gain a privilege or whatever, not say the privilege gain some type of high of sexual fantasy, is against who got now get the idea of law or whatever it is. There is only one covenant to where that God allows that gratification then to be taking place, and that is the marriage covenant. And I know this sounds like elementary Bible lesson, but I, we understand in the world, people understand, as far as in a culture, what it means to be friends with benefits. I have a friend with benefits the idea of living together meaning that you know you can try the test drive before you really take the car out, whatever it is, and so you can essentially have sex together without having the commitment to really then show up. Now again, we're not talking about that aspect of it, of fornication, and it seems like, wow, you're really preaching nature. Sorry, but it's just, I'm not talking about that fornication, but do you know that pornography does? It does not require me to show up. It means that I can enjoy a benefit quote unquote with no contractual agreement whatsoever, and so therefore I can develop them in the development developmentally, show up like a teenager and eat all the candy I want inside of the candy store and take absolutely no responsibility for the actions that I am doing. That's exactly what pornography is antithetical to God's love and also, as well, you find, it is absolutely this order of worship, because then I place my desires above the creator's plan that he has created for me and the way and the use of the temple that he has given to me. So again, I think we've made it abundantly clear but I just wanted to make sure that at least the viewpoint was heavily understood that biblically speaking, there is no wiggle room, there is no okayness of Spotify porn. A little bit from the biblical stance, whether whether we're saying in our following condition, we follow it 100% or not, we're not putting it there, but with that being stated on the table, we want to make sure that that's understood. So then let's go to this, which is pretty much the conversation, at least for this, the closing of this part of the cornedific.
Speaker 1:Many times we think of a pornog. I mean not porn, but certain things have a shelf life to it. For example, right now currently in 2024, we're recording this in March Taylor Swift is like the bee's knees right. That's even a still a thing that people say Everybody's a Swifty right. But then it comes and it's going to go right. I mean, I remember when I was a teenager was it Corbin blue? Like everybody loved Corbin blue, worship the ground he walked on. Now that you probably don't know the man, right? It's like everything has its wave, that it kind of goes through to some extent. Now, with that being said, anton, is this just a wave Like, is this okay? The pandemic's over, let's go back to our non porn tells Well, not as much. I mean, get grew 50% nearly during the COVID pandemic. But is how long then the shelf life? I don't know if that's the right way to ask it, but, specifically speaking, how long does this have a life of profitability, at least in our culture?
Speaker 3:I'm going to say as far as shelf life goes, its shelf life is really In line with the shelf life of that society. I don't think societies can last in these Circumstances. And to go back actually to something you said earlier about the previous question, you said that you were having a hard time believing that, that many people felt that porn was just as immoral as Recycling, and see, I don't think that. I think that's probably even a lower number than I would believe, because outside of a biblical argument in the world we live in there's not another really argument against porn.
Speaker 1:Oh, my soul. I'm just being honest, I'm saying like I mean, I grew up in a bubble man, so yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm saying, if you remove that, that thought process, and you have porn readily available not only readily available, though. Women wish to do it, the men wish to consume it, so there's a buyer and a seller that are both completely okay with the terms, then I think the argument Doesn't exist until, again, what we become consequentialist. It doesn't exist until that woman can't get married and she's depressed, and that man can't have a Relationship because he's so addicted to porn, which is a 20 to 30 year problem that isn't here yet in its largest form. And to me, if you take the Bible out of it, which is what we've done as a society, it becomes a Until we're all so sick from the thing that the candy we're eating, it doesn't matter. I Think that's where we are right now.
Speaker 1:I See, and I guess I'm trying to in an area I'm gonna speak back to you in just a second but I'm looking in at Europe, right, and so I mean we're not talking about European culture specifically, but my wife and I were going on the trip and so we found ourselves in the answer dam, and so here are an answer dam and walking around and it would be considered to be a more post-Christian era, whatever type you know word you want to use, and Like I'm going. You know If you ever done that little river where you can go, like go through the city and take a little boat, go to the river, that good river that runs through the city, and I had to go to the bathroom. So bad, and there's no, really no public restroom. So I might looking everywhere to go to the bathroom and so whether, and I did not realize it but there was a McDonald's and I was trying to thought, surely McDonald's has a bathroom. So I might going in and out trying to find, couldn't find a bathroom.
Speaker 1:So I went to the place next door to McDonald's and I thought and this is gonna sound so stupid now, but I thought there was like, I thought it's like some type of aquarium, assortment, assorts or whatever it was. And so I just go barging in. I didn't realize it was a sex museum. And so, as I'm barging inside and I didn't realize that what I thought was a clam was actually an Image of a vagina that was taller than I was at the entrance and I'm staring here looking and I'm like my wife is looking at me and I'm like is this? Well, are you serious? Like I'm, like I'm about to break out into Adrian mode of like, are y'all people unbelievable, you know type mode, in front of this museum that is legitimately right beside a McDonald's. And so I think back myself, so I use that in my head and I come back United States, right, and it's like when I say does have a shelf life?
Speaker 1:Like, isn't there a point? Like, as Anton just saying Aaron, is it like a point where we just get so sick of it, where it's like this is so provocatively Disgusting that this is not even attractive anymore. Like there seems to be like, you know, the day of dirty old men or whatever it is, and because point are still accessible. Now we're just kind of like there's a coolness. Whatever it is, you know I can look at this. You know I can have my little fun in the Keeney store, you know what I mean. But isn't it get to a point where it's just absolutely just nauseating, to the point of like is anything sacred, is Anything precious? Is a relationship I can have worth even having? Do you see where I'm coming from, aaron? Of how I feel like it has a shelf life? But it just seems like at what point does it just all blow up in our face?
Speaker 2:I Think, as we call it today, sex work has been since time began and people were sinful. So when you start thinking that we're acting like this is something new, like when you go to the word of God, right, and go back to I'm trying to pull, it looks like I've got multiple, but Judah and Tamar, you was going for a walk, tamar dresses up as a harlot and Walks past Judah and you just like, okay, let's do this. Hmm, did that not seem weird? You're going for a walk and all of a sudden you meet this woman who's dressed like a prostitute and you're really cool to give her your ring and everything else as a as a down payment, so to speak, until I can get you the rest of your money. Like we act like this is something new. This has been going on for a long time now. It's just more accessible because the internet. We have lots more options for an anonymity, but I don't think it's going away because I don't think it's anything new.
Speaker 1:Well, but the part that the anti-war I'm just gonna say this real quick and then I'll just whatever you wanted to say is but isn't it specifically, is it? I'm just want to also highlight the fact of its COVID's effect upon all of this as well. Has it put it on an accelerated path? But, anti, what were you saying?
Speaker 3:It is new. I think this is the reason that we are in a new era. I think people Think, for example, if you look at, like your, our parents or our grandparents, like Hustler magazine, the thing of that porn has really changed is not only its accessibility, which you pointed out, but it's also the frequency to which you can do it, which, again, that's what I'm saying Like Judah has to leave his house to go do something. For this to happen, you don't have to do that. I could sit in my room all day endlessly, which is completely new.
Speaker 3:The other third thing I would say that's completely new and that's why I would disagree somewhat with people saying COVID and the pandemic is what spurred it on. It's not that. If you look at what happened during the pandemic, it's the, for example, only fans. I'm not sure. Again, people are familiar with the term, but that's what's new.
Speaker 3:And the fact of only fans is no longer porn as we I would say my generation would have known it. It's completely different because it's parasocial. It's a social media website where you can meet and talk to actual people who will send you pornography and have the relationship, like people called the girlfriend experience, where you can go on a date with a girl for $500 and then she can show you porn. It's a completely new because it takes out the need for other human contact at all, because most people don't just wanna have sex, they also want a relationship, and that gives you the feeling that you're having one on both sides. That you feel like you have a boyfriend that you've never met because you can pay him $1,000 a week to come talk to you about his problems and then at the end you can tell him or her to do whatever you wanna do, is completely new.
Speaker 3:And that's why we're Go ahead, sorry, and that's why I wouldn't say it's the same as prostitution, because prostitution still required some form of human contact and human sensibility, that this is not.
Speaker 2:Okay, so is it Herodias who dances for Herod?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, like what's his name? Who wants Vaschai to come? Hadjuares, who wants Vaschai to come out? Like all we've done is capitalism at its best. It's like now I don't have to.
Speaker 2:Instead of dancing in front of them. Now all I have to do is do it privately and I can sell this same dance to multiple people, and so I guess, for me, I still don't see how I see the avenues to which it's dispersed as having new avenues to disperse the pornography. I don't need a gatekeeper, I don't need HBO or wherever to just put this on at nighttime. I don't need to just have get to a certain magazine. Said man, said woman can do this from her house with an Instagram account or a Twitter account or I mean, sorry, ex account, and we can do all these things. So that's the only thing for me.
Speaker 2:I don't think this is new outside of now. I have way more avenues to do this, and you don't. I don't need to have to be necessarily, and I say this please don't take this more than what I'm trying to say but you don't have to be. It's not about your looks, it's not about anything, it's just I want to do this, and so that's the only part where I don't feel like it's new, and here's where I would disagree with that to a certain extent, and that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:It's, you're not wrong. It's that modern technology amplifies things that were simpler, because what's new now is Vashti is online and her mom can see it, her dad can see it, her children in 40 years can see it, her grandchildren will have to see it. Everything that's happened is completely different. It's magnified.
Speaker 3:A problem that was once someone met someone on the side of the road and did things they shouldn't have is now a problem for that person's entire family throughout all the time. It's also that now you used to have to dance for hair as the king in like, let's say, 20 other men. Now you're dancing for millions of men. It's different because all those problems lead to worse outcomes. They cause more anxiety, they cause more depression because in the past you could, as we would say, you could repent and move on, which you still can. But let's not pretend that if a woman does only fans at 20, that's not gonna change her life at 35. Because those pictures and those movies are forever. So I think it amplifies the same problem that you're talking about, but it does make it unique.
Speaker 2:I can agree with you to extend. I agree with you to extend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I would fall in the middle of you guys and be say it's a different dish, because it's. I mean, we can make the argument that like, well, the Pony Express and the iPhone are exactly the same thing. All it is is sending messages one back for the other. You know like I get it. Yes, that's all that's happening. But obviously the convenience and the accessibility and all the other words that we're using essentially is just that now there's a whole lot more to be accountable for because, consequently, you send more videos now, you send more pictures now, like, if we couldn't text as often as we could, then probably we wouldn't be communicating as often as we do, we probably wouldn't have a podcast sitting in, pretty much sitting in three different states right now and recording a podcast, so we probably just wouldn't have this mood of communication as we went forward. So, with all that being said, I think it would be like different-ish.
Speaker 1:But I do appreciate Anton highlighting how much the further repercussions that we face for people that are trying to then like the battle out of it is a whole lot more intense than the battle out of it would have been before, like you might have. Just, you know, like Judah Tamar situation and all that took place is probably not in the whole. Lot of people saw that, and so therefore you could literally just move to another town and be like I'm gonna have a fresh start. The internet has a way of following you, no matter where you go in the world, you know. So it's one of those things where it's kind of hard to then do that. So I guess that battle plan of getting back right then is a lot more difficult than it has been in other times, so-.
Speaker 2:Well, can I add this? I think I agree with 100% of what you guys are saying and the differences, but I was gonna say in context of the question, that's the reason I'd say I don't think it's going away because I don't think it was new and I guess that's the part where I still stand at saying that I don't think it's going away anytime soon, because I think it's been around for a long time.
Speaker 2:We just had different avenues, so just to make sure my answer got hit back in the context of the question. That's why I would have said it's not going anywhere for a while.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, that makes sense, and I guess-.
Speaker 3:I'll push back on that too. Oh, can I say one thing Because?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna say real quick, but the aspect of and we'll talk about this next time as well, because we're gonna break down the AI revolution as it pertains to this topic next time. But that's just a teaser. Antot, what were you saying that you're pushing back on?
Speaker 3:That the question, in my opinion, was about porn. I think sex work will always exist, and by that I mean prostitution. I don't think porn can always. I don't think porn will always exist. I think that's why you see a lot of even more conservative countries banning it. Like you're not gonna go to Dubai and have this as a big problem, because it's not possible. Because the thing is, when porn is readily accessible, as everyone has mentioned, it not only destroys the men, because most men, a lot of men, watch porn. So you're gonna have that problem. And most women don't wanna marry men who watch porn. So you have the problem of reproduction. Because this is the thing. Like you look at societies that have porn consumption at a high rate, they don't have a lot of kids, the birth rate declines.
Speaker 3:The agent brought up the Netherlands. That's what happened in most of Europe. It's what's happening in the United States, what's happening in Japan. Because the two things can't coexist, because eventually men will go sneak in their basement and just message people and only fans. Women will do that while they're young, in their most reproductive years, make good money at it, and then no men will want to marry those women. It doesn't work long term. It's a very short term strategy.
Speaker 1:So are you then making as far as wrapping this up and closing? So are you saying pretty much that pornography destroys the civilization?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Is there any other sin that you can readily think of? That then has that same kind of effect.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, I don't think it's sin. Again, we're not gonna get into a big debate, but I think there are other ideas that lead here that I will leave at that.
Speaker 1:There are other ideas that I think are foundational to getting to that position. Are you really gonna leave us hanging with saying that it's not really a sin? Is that what you're gonna do?
Speaker 3:No, pornography is a sin, that's not what I said.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not what you said.
Speaker 3:Oh, pornography is 100% a sin. Again, we already discussed that, okay okay.
Speaker 3:I'm saying the foundational ideas that lead here I don't think are sin, and that's the point I was trying to make when you said outside of the Bible. That is why you come to a position where what is the moral argument against pornography outside of the Bible? Because pornography is founded on a lot of presuppositions I disagree with that, I don't think necessarily are sin, but I think it does lead there and once again you have us just like what you talked about with the Netherlands you have a society that no longer believes the Bible and believes those other presuppositions. I believe that leads to sin.
Speaker 1:Interesting Before I ask this last question here, that neither one of you knows coming Aaron any follow up that you have to feel that Nope, I agree with Anton that there's a lot of other underlying things that bring us here, to where we're at.
Speaker 1:Um, since this is a podcast, race and culture specifically, um, this might be an Anton will he'll tell me if it's unfair, if it's uh, if it's not a fair comparison in this question. But we, race and culture, you know, obviously we always talk about America's original sin and that's. That statement has been thrown around a lot, right? You know slavery and different things in the way that image are. Then Do you feel that this specific sin has had more of an impact on our society than Any of the ones that we can? Any other Implementation, specific implementation of certain sins in our society?
Speaker 1:Like because I mean, with the outgrowth, one in three More revenue than all the different things that everybody in the United States would know in the NBA and in jail, like with it having that why I just don't like Historical things and stuff like that is like when money, greed, power, all these things. Like it just seems that we go through the whole money, sex and power. That sex should probably spelt the capital s because it is that, just because we're talking about the topic, or do you really feel, anton, starting with you, do you really feel like this truly is Probably worse? Just we can't really talk about it because everybody's dealing with it? Quote-unquote.
Speaker 3:I don't think it's worse and that's exactly what I meant with the presupposition. I think Pornography is the not even pornography we talk, sex work in general is the ending of an empire. But I believe wholeheartedly it's not how you get rid of the empire, how you get rid of the empire, which pornography is that last little nail in the coffin. And I would say sex work is destroying the family and I think a lot of the presuppositions that I think people make, or how you got rid of the family. And once you get rid of the family, these things that's why I said these things are what's wrong with them.
Speaker 3:If you take away the family in the bible, which I would say is what happened 100 years ago, before porn was a big thing, then you have no defense for them. Without family in the bible, there's no argument for this. Our argument is entirely based on the bible and don't disappoint your family. And if you don't have those two, the argument once these things hits, which is why these things come later, is what? What is the actual argument? A girl shouldn't go make money and start her own business. That's the argument. What is your argument outside of those two things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the fact that you just personally don't like what I do. Oh man, yeah, I can hear all right now. Um, that's a powerful, that's a powerful statement. That's a powerful statement, aaron. What are any uh thoughts?
Speaker 2:I don't believe it's the worst. Um, and I don't say this it's gonna sound like I'm trying to be trite, but Sin is bad and I think when we start trying to say one sin, sin has more long. Let me back up and say this yes, I know some sins have more consequences than others and lasting consequences, but to say that this is the worst, or like one of the sins with the most long-term ramifications, I don't think so. I think all sin has ramifications and when we view it that way, I think it helps us put our heads on straight, because I think sometimes what happens is even in the um argument in our christian circles. It becomes homosexuality is the worst thing we're dealing with, or transgender issues and we forget about divorce. Uh, we start looking at other things. So the only reason I'm afraid to say it is the worst of consequences. I'm like all sin has consequences and so it'd be hard for me to say that this is the worst one, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know, I just you know, obviously, having tunnel vision and seeing it specifically, Um, the only pushback I would give is I do believe it does leave to fornication, and then it does seem that there's an implement Application and first grant the is that that you sin against your own body, which has a lot of different aspects to it as well, which seems meaning it seems like there's a deeper scarring.
Speaker 1:If that makes sense, then other sins that you see that take place within you know human society, and then even in Proverbs, or even said, there's a reproach that goes with certain sins as well.
Speaker 1:And then I would even also add that when Jesus was portrayed in the garden of Eden, that he looked at the people who brought him, judas, and said, hey, look he, he who brought you to me, he has sinned the greater sin, meaning that, like, obviously you're doing something bad, but the dude who told you, like who were to find me, like that guy, he has sinned the greater sin. Like there seems to be like a degree to some degree. Like I'm not taking specifically all the Application of what he did and what Haley said, it I'm just saying there seems to be a degree and the only thing I'm pointing out is I never want to strike the court of hopelessness and shame. That is not the point. But I am also not going to back down from the reality of the danger that this is as well, and so I don't know if I'm treading that line. Well, but I am just saying, like you're you seem to fall on the grace side, aaron Is mine seeming to be harsh? The way that I'm viewing that?
Speaker 1:Because I will kind of do it Go ahead and finish what you're saying because I'm kind of on that side of that, it probably does have more in effect, and just because it's baked in a little bit more for years and years and years the idea of sex sin, that I just feel like it's just kind of part of who we are. So it's just kind of like, well, yeah, you got to watch tv with that in, and well, that's just how it works, you know, you kind of got to watch. It's just just just what we do, you know, and I think that you know, maybe that's indicative of the fact that it's baked in, meaning that it's a bigger problem Than what we even want to give the credit for. That's the reason why I'm asking the larger of the sins, right?
Speaker 2:But in my mind, money, the love of money through the vol, evil that. That has caused a lot of problems, but I think we're okay with those problems, even here in america we're okay with the love of money causing the issues that it does in our cultural society. I would say power the same. So I don't know if I'd put Pornography as the worst. I think it's bad. I'm not trying to be on the grace side, I'm just saying for me. I think there's a lot of them that we're just Comfortable with, and I think our society is now becoming comfortable with pornography so we're rightly so need to be bothered by that. But I think there's a lot of other ones Right that are just as sinful, but we're just a little more accommodating of them if that, yeah, I can follow that, I can follow that.
Speaker 3:So Anti-nanny thoughts as we close this up. I agree with Aaron, I know we have to close, but I think that's the reason I have a hard time with saying that it's the worst and that's why I say it's the the kind of the end is that and I would say it's about christian as a whole like you brought up, aaron brought up gay marriage, transgenderism we're not bothered by sin or bothered by a couple of sins that affect our culture in a way we don't like. And then we lie and say it's about sin Because, as Aaron denoted, we are completely okay if Jeff Bezos poisons half of Montana Because he needs 10 trillion more dollars or whatever he needs. Like don't not be one christian church in this country bothered. However, if, like, one guy sees a drag queen at a library in like the most liberal California city you've ever been in, that none of us would live in, it's the end of the world. So I don't. I think we have to be a little little more honest about whether it's the sin or if it's just the culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, well. Well, that's a great conclusion. Um, well, the porn, demographic pornography, part one we went through a discussion about what has happened post pandemic and even during the pandemic, and even all the dematerials, and it's just a lot to unpack. And next time, as we kind of mentioned earlier, kind of alluded to a little bit, um, we were going to talk about the larger effects that obviously it has on our culture, especially as it relates to AI, and I know that seems to be kind of like an interesting Way of then seeing it, but I do believe that the conversation will be helpful to be able to unpack. We don't want to normalize this, we want it to be understood about what the dangers are here in our society and see some of the observations and hopefully, by guys grace, look at it and Um, digest it biblically. So, with that being said, our all hearts and minds clear. Yes, yep, all right, I'm sorry, it was sweet and sour, like I said, but we hope you join us next time.