The Pornification of a Culture- PART 2

**PG-13 Rating**

As our conversation unfolds, we expose the stark reality of how early exposure to pornography disrupts the perception of others and distorts the covenant of marriage. The pernicious nature of adult content and its blatant contradiction to God's design is laid bare, emphasizing the need for a renewal of our minds. And with the church at a crossroads, we probe whether its strategies are robust enough to address the evolving digital landscape marked by artificial intelligence—a landscape that threatens to redefine our very notions of reality.

Closing the episode, we share our conviction on the power of mentorship within the church, particularly for young adults who must navigate a world drenched in inappropriate online content. Join us on this journey as we continue to explore our roles and responsibilities in confronting these timely challenges.

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Transcript

Adrian: 0:28

Hey, welcome to another episode of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us on this very, very heavy and Rated PG-13 topic that we have been discussing. So this is the disclaimer for you if you are just popping in in the middle. This series, this rating, is made because we definitely want to be careful, whoever you played us in front of. We're not going to be purposely Overth and describing details, but we just want to make you aware as we discuss this part two portion about pornography and its effects within our culture. We're gonna do a little bit of review in just a moment, but, just like last time, we want to talk about something that's super light, something non-controversial, just something light, right before the beginning, right before we jump into that heavy content.

Adrian: 1:11

So I have a question that I always, like I normally do, and this isn't Though debate or anything like that, but just wondering for you guys, if you have the opportunity. We're talking about fame and fortune and all the things around it. All right for our silly question today if you would you rather be a famous actor or whether you or would you rather be a Famous director. Between those two, the famous actor, the front face of the star, or the director behind the scenes guy, I think I know. But I'm curious and I'm gonna go with Aaron. Let's go with you first. Famous actor or director director, director, director, director.

Aaron: 1:50

That's to be long to memorize. Not did the line memorization, sir.

Adrian: 1:56

So but but if you were, though? I mean, it's just a matter of which you prefer, it's not a matter what you think you have a capacity for.

Aaron: 2:01

I'm not. I'm not a probably not the best performer, oh.

Aaron: 2:05

I'm not gonna lie, I don't think and I would say like I think I look at people like what I'm friend, josh Harney, friends, other friends and like they enjoy like the performance aspect and like learning and what's called that that doesn't give me an adrenaline rush in a good way. I think I remember what when we did back in the Day we had that school play that was like the church Christmas play and I think I was one of the main characters and I just remember after being done with the play and doing all my lines and I think I did okay, whatever, but I remember dad took me home early. I just remember going home and throwing up and being sick for like a night another day. So just like I can't do that, I'm like it's not my thing.

Adrian: 2:45

I didn't even know that. Oh, my Anton, are you Christopher Nolan? Are you Robert Downey Jr Christopher Nolan, all day, it's not even close.

Anton: 2:55

It's not for me, it's not them lines. I just one. I enjoy it more and To I would never. I think the coolest thing one is creating the entire thing. I think making Mediocre actors look great, but the sides just I think it takes more talent. I really would not like everyone to see me immediately. Like you can think of a lot of great directors today and they're not as recognizable as like Leonardo DiCaprio.

Adrian: 3:23

I know you go that way.

Anton: 3:24

Yeah, I would rather be a great director and I can lay low and still go out the town.

Adrian: 3:30

Ah well, I guess it's really not real, a real reason for me to answer this question. Look, christopher Nolan's not doing the. You know, hey, come to my kids birthday party. He's not doing that, but Robert Downey Jr Is doing that. So I, yeah, I'll deal with it. I'll deal with the having to die at the paparazzi's or whatever it is and Do all that fun stuff. I don't know, maybe I just don't understand the director does and all those things, but it just seems that everyone gets mad at you until the very end, when it's done, and we're all like thank you so much.

Adrian: 4:07

You were so amazing, but we wanted to kill you literally for the last nine months that's. We were putting this together, and so I feel like, anyway, so all that is can?

Aaron: 4:15

we add one more element in, because I think we all fit into a category, but I'd better say can we be the what is the creative on the side, like the videographer, the photographer? Those are the things that I would rather be if you gave me the another option. So I think if that happens, we can all three find our spot.

Adrian: 4:34

Yes, it's called the body of Christ, and everybody's not an arm nor a leg or an eye, so everybody's be content and what they're doing. So, anyway, I thought those would be the answers that I would receive from you guys but I thought, hey, let's just ask it anyway, all right. Well, we have last time during our discussion, some people and I even talking with you know once that kind of usually our faithful listeners and stuff, and it's not like it's a prize that people think that we're doing it, but it's kind of like man, why do you have to bring this topic up? But, as we mentioned the last episode, something that makes more money than the MLB, nba and NFL combined, something that is this large, does need some airtime to be able to talk about because obviously it's affecting our culture in dramatic ways, whether or not we choose to acknowledge the effect that is having.

Adrian: 5:30

One of the follow-up thoughts that I had from the last episode that Anton was mentioning, and then I Said it in a way, and then Anton, it gave some vernacular to it what's the fact that without a Bible type Foundation, this matter of Pornography and this matter of you know what people choose to do with their body there's really not an argument meaning like I think that, culturally speaking, if we walked around and had a microphone and said is it wrong to kill another person?

Adrian: 5:59

Then you know, just for whatever reason, that people are gonna say that's wrong, that's wicked, even purse a person that does not have any Bible foundation whatsoever Because they feel like man, you can't do that to another human being. And but people Typically that would have a Bible basis or a morality code of some type of ethics would be the ones that would then say Pornography is wrong. Or else they're then saying well, you can't tell a woman what to do with their body or a man not to do with their body. That is not your decision. So that really weighed heavy and understanding that, wow, this is truly a biblical worldview type Discussion. Now any follow-up thoughts or anything like that from what we were discussing as we get ready set the stage of where we're going.

Aaron: 6:42

Aaron, starting with you, no, I don't, I don't at all. I mean, I don't have the same Communications with you, but the only thing that popped into my mind was, like who would be, I mean, outside of the rating of the podcast, who would be like against the topic? But I mean, maybe not against is a strong word, but like why would you bring it up? So, other than that, that was the one thing that jumped out of me.

Adrian: 7:01

Yeah yeah, it's not a matter of a guess. It's just kind of like we don't like what we don't like and it's not comfortable, you know, and this is part of that. So, anton, any commentary before I ask you a question concerning some of the content from last time.

Anton: 7:14

I have a slight comment. I just want to emphasize that I do really feel that it is coming from a Christian worldview and I think the reason why pornography, in my opinion I Know people may not immediately understand this analogy and I think porn is like the racism of our day. It's the sin everyone struggles with, or I would say, more people in the church Struggle within any other sin, and that's precisely the reason nobody wishes to talk about it. I do feel that is what it is in our generation. It's the sin that you could walk in any church and pretty much make the assumption that a sizable proportion Maybe 50, 50, however you wish to break it down have consumed porn, knowing that it's sin, but no one is allowed to talk about it. No one really preaches on.

Adrian: 7:55

I have commentary upon that later on the episode as well, but you're in the last podcast, anton, you were mentioning about only fans, and for me that that terminology really went over my head and I just wanted you to, just for people who are like Adrian, I'm just curious just could you define what that was, because you were describing it as you know, obviously an assumed knowledge, and so just so we have an understanding of what that's about.

Anton: 8:23

Only fans is a platform that started off not as a pornographic Platform, but where people would make videos and sell the content to their fans or people who subscribe to the channel.

Anton: 8:34

At this point, it pretty much is mainly and only an adult film content site where people, usually women, make money by selling either nude photos or Videos to People they know. Usually so, again, it's something like people who they went to school with and they promote them on their Instagram or other Pages to get more fans, and the more fans you have, obviously, the more revenue that you make. It started and really got its heyday during Covid, which is why I think we're having conversation about cold when I brought it up, because that's when it really Blew up, because a lot of women were out of work, and one of the reasons that I know about it Is because there are women that literally quit a job. I used to work for the government, quit their job to do that, like Ask Covid, because they were making substantially more money I Doing only fans at home, working a couple hours a week selling photos, and they were working a full-time job. So, yeah, that's what it is.

Adrian: 9:29

Okay, and I'm assuming this started out innocently and then it became this. Is that how it started?

Anton: 9:36

I Wouldn't say innocent. It started it started better than it is. I think in the beginning it was more like famous people, so like a rapper or a, I think, martha Stewart of yielded cooking, but it was usually more wealthy people who already had quote-unquote fans who were like hey, you can see what I'm doing in my day-to-day life for this much money. And then it kind of devolved into this.

Adrian: 10:03

Okay, the reason I was bringing it up is because, like, only fans was brought into that conversation about people feeling connection and cuz, like sometimes it wasn't like a you know my only thing looking at pornography, but they actually have relationship with the people.

Adrian: 10:15

So I'll just ask for clarification on that.

Adrian: 10:17

So, if that makes sense, those really questions I really have from the fight last episode.

Adrian: 10:22

So, as we look at the overview for what we're gonna be discussing during this episode, we want to name the large effect it might even be seen obvious effect that pornography has had on our current culture and then we want to then contrast that With a small or maybe unforeseen effect that it has had upon our culture and then kind of wrap that in with the discussion about artificial intelligence, as it relates to this as well, and then we'll close off the episode by discussing the church and how it's done and Battling this societal cancer that obviously is eroding our society. So, with that being said, starting off from the top, and then we'll start with Aaron on this one, we'll just go around the room, so to speak and then what we'll do is the large effects of we're not your feet are current culture, however much you want to delve into the details of it is your discretion. But starting with you, aaron made a large effect that you see, as you were studying for this episode here today.

Aaron: 11:22

I'd say the large effect. For me right now and I'm just not necessarily studying, just observations of where I live, working with the other adults and I've worked with teenagers for a little bit One of the large, I'd say the large one is it is totally changing young men's view on what women are. So even when you start going through, like into marriage, expectations for marriage, exit, expectations for a sex life and marriage expectations for a Woman, in what the woman looks like, like, all those things are being like, the brain is literally being transformed. I'm trying to think of the name of my book but I can't. It's not.

Aaron: 12:03

They don't use the word transform, but it is a certain formation of the brain that especially the younger you are Exposed to these things, the more that transformation begins to happen and you begin to use certain things, certain ways and it'll lead into my small. I think it's Unnoticed but I'm noticing a lot. I don't think it's notice on a big picture but it leads into my small one. But the big one for me is literally the transformation of the brain. So even when I'm doing like premarital counseling with Guys who have had struggles with it, you can tell how it is shaped and formed, their thinking on sexual things Because of their view of foreign, and a lot of them acknowledge it, but I don't think we understand the long-term ramifications of this.

Adrian: 12:49

Interesting. And so what about you, the large effect? I think that we're gonna be kind of same in similar saying, similar things, but I'm curious about what direction you went.

Anton: 12:59

I am saying pretty much exactly what Aaron saying just rewarded, I suppose, but for me it wasn't the marriage rate as a whole and the the nuclear family structure as a whole. I think porn has drastically changed For both men and women in different ways. What marriage actually means and it's another conversation that again I'm also gonna harken back to what I said last time where what marriage means is also a very fundamentally biblical idea of that covenant relationship. And I think once you enter these other things, that kind of pervert, what has already been a perverted version of marriage, you end up in a very odd place. I think that's exactly where we are.

Adrian: 13:39

Yeah, and I would also echo, so we're not gonna spend a ton of time there or whatever it is, because I I was gonna word it differently, but the idea of the family breakdown, I I don't think that there is a family that is helped and and I am sure that there's gonna be some person that might want To be a naysayer, to be like you know what I have seen pornography, help a man who is impotent in his sexual relationship to be able to gain, you know, greater Affection for his wife or something to that effect, and I'm sure somebody. But it's, look, it's just like the, the black man who's driving a Subaru. I'm sure it's out there. I just never, I Just don't know.

Aaron: 14:22

Thank you for that comic relief.

Adrian: 14:25

Well, don't you understand? Like have you ever seen a black man ride a Subaru? I guess I am actually are you?

Anton: 14:31

serious.

Adrian: 14:43

For people who really want to make a point to say that it's helping the family. That's the illustration that came to mind. Sorry, it's just. The only thing is just like are you for real to really say that we're gonna say that as Benefited the benefits of what it does to relationship? I have no idea who's who's saying is help their marriage. I see it as guilt and all those things. So obviously the family breakdown is a huge reason why in our current society that we see that is it's affected us. So we don't want to spend a lot of time there because we don't want to just live in the world of captain, obvious. However, let's go underneath the surface a little bit and then start talking about the overlooked aspects, or overseeing the small. I hate to say small, because obviously anything that sin affects, obviously it has terrible effects. But then one of the overlooked matters. So, aaron, started with you. You alluded to yours. What would that be? I?

Aaron: 15:36

think it's in this, this move for, and it's not just marriage, but that relationships are about, um, guys walking into a nation where the relationship is about them and that the woman is there to please them. And so one of the things that I I think I've walked through with a number of Young adults right now is, especially guys, is this thought that, hey, this, I found the girl. She checks all the boxes that I want. And I am speaking that we can talk a lot of things about porn. So there's lots of other areas you can go, but I'm just talking from my experience. This girl checks all the boxes. She loves the Lord, she does these things, these things, checks all the boxes. But there could be another girl out there who has all these things that I want, and so Should I wait for her? Should I wait for her? Should I wait for this? Should I not enter this relationship?

Aaron: 16:35

And it's like I Think I've talked to, at least right now, a hand, four or five guys who've kind of walked through the same thing, and it's almost like porn.

Aaron: 16:46

Let you be able to chase to your, your specific, whatever desire.

Aaron: 16:52

Oh, I like this, I want this, check all these boxes, filter all these things and you get to this like one particular kind of person that you want or that you're looking for, and then you're just only clicking to find like the next buzz, the next like Um thing of excitement, and then you end up that all you're doing is pretty much I'm trying to think through the book, dane Ortland's porn book, but it's just talking through.

Aaron: 17:16

You're just pretty much just recycling through to what you enjoy, what you like, and so that translates into not just an online clicking. It translates into now you have young ladies who would make a great wife, but because your mind has been transformed into this way of thinking that this woman's here for your pleasure, that you're looking for all these things that you've seen, witnessed on, you've witnessed on these kind of relationships, and then you start to build your, your life on something that is not true, and it is definitely the sinking sand of pornography and the relationships that it appears to be there. That is, again, not real paid actors, nothing there. But yet you're willing to start having your mind formatted for those, for those kind of relationships, if that makes sense.

Adrian: 18:08

Absolutely. I stand in, applaud that answer because that truly to me, when I look at how the effects, that we see the unforeseen of somebody who struggled with it during their teenage years, there's a renewing of the mind that has to take place on a lot of levels because the objectifying that it's taking place of women, just because you stop quote, unquote, stop looking at it, doesn't mean now that you suddenly haven't had some habits that still need to be broken down, and that is clearly clearly one of them as it relates to man to woman in this kind of context that you were mentioned about, because who you are counseling. But oh, the unrealistic expectations and the fact that they're just there to please me, instead of it being a mutual covenant relationship we give our life one to another, that all these things are left totally in the background when we become selfish in our motives of even how we treat the marriage covenant. So absolutely huge, huge, unforced, one of those overseen aspects of how this cancer has really gotten to society. I want to do mine because and then I will go over to Anton for the overlook, because mine is similar to where Aaron's is and I would also echo to what he said, that the, but then I'll take it a little step, you know, in a different direction but at the same time same vein of thought, and that is the idea that the effect of pornography that is overlooked is that nothing, seemingly, is real anymore. Now we're going to have the discussion about AI as it relates to this topic, but we have found in our society to circumvent God's plan literally on every single level. I mean, this is one of those aspects where sometimes we don't realize just how much it has done even to our thinking.

Adrian: 19:53

As it relates to the covenant and the one flesh relationship as well. The devil has only one weapon, and that weapon that he has is deception. To he cannot offer you more than what God can offer you. It's impossible, because Christ, god is life and the devil is death, like that's. That's his ultimate end. The only weapon that he truly does have is deception, so he can make you feel like he's giving you the world, but in reality it's very clear that he has not, and it has fooled men and women both into now thinking that this selfish approach of objectifying others and getting out of them what we need is truly the life worth living, and it is so sad. You know it's one of those little underlying things, but it kind of affects us at our core as well. It's kind of similar to what Aaron is saying, but just that really harping on that fact specifically as it relates to the counterfeit way that it makes us think about others. So, anton, what about you? What's one of those under the surface type effects that it's had on our culture?

Anton: 21:01

I would say along the lines of what Aaron was saying. I think the first time and that, to me, is it has rewired people's brains and when I say that, people often think, like what Aaron was saying, that I'm talking about people who view porn. But it's rewired all of our brains. I think in some way, this is another one of those foundational things of what is porn. Porn has really evolved into whatever the thing is that's so gross that we wouldn't watch, because there was a time Game of Thrones would have been porn. Like that would have been a porn Porn out like 50 years ago. But now Christians watch Game of Thrones. Oh good.

Anton: 21:41

Now when you look at like Instagram, what you see on Instagram would have been porn when I was a kid. Like that would have been like the dirtiest thing you've ever seen. That's now for public consumption. You go to a normal beach public consumption. What we would have called pornography now is what we see on a daily. Porn has gone so far. From what again? When you if you just think our childhood to now.

Anton: 22:06

So now, when people say things like the porn industry or porn is rewiring the brains of people who watch porn, the thing that I would again argue, is that it's really rewired society as a whole. There were things that were completely unacceptable that now are acceptable. And to piggyback on what Aaron said the second time, because I think it's completely true and even weaves into social media is that I think we have to understand porn is another one of those things that has to complete two victims of a very bad system. You have young women who are valuing themselves on beauty and sexuality, on Instagram and Instagram likes, and young boys who have no clue what it means to be a good woman, and both these things are feeding off of each other in a very negative and sad way, and I think that you have to really both address and help both of these people at the same time.

Adrian: 22:56

Man. I'll say you nailed that, man, because when you look at the generational backslide that's taken place of where we are and where we've come, and it's just like, wow, that's something that really just stands out as far as, yeah, there's no denying that pornography has contributed to that rewiring of an entire culture viewpoint. Anyway, anyway, I will not get issue oriented, even though I'm careful. I do want to make sure I respect people's Christian liberty and different things like that. But there's just a lot of things that my mind goes to and I'm like since when was that okay? Since when, like a bottom is a bottom man, I mean it is, there's just no way around it. Like, at what point do we then say that is neck it? And when we keep messing that line, I think it's because of the rewiring of pornography that makes things different.

Anton: 23:56

I'll be the bad guy. Can I add something else? Because?

Anton: 23:59

I'm not even going to harp on that because, again, I understand what you're saying, but there are things that people watch that I wouldn't, and things of that nature. What I did mean to add, though, is I do think this is another biblical principle of nakedness should make us ashamed. See that feeling you feel in your stomach. It should, and I think you're in a very bad spot in society when nakedness doesn't make you ashamed and it doesn't bother you. When you see someone showing their body, it should bother you. Like again, I think that's the first thing that happened with that need. They saw they were naked. That was the big thing. Immediately they both knew, and I think there is both Bible and just psychology to say that that is something that is good for society to feel that uncomfortableness with nakedness.

Adrian: 24:43

Yeah, and even just to have a moment where it's kind of like wow, that's not right or that's messes up things Like because when I was in Dubai and Abu Dhabi and we were walking in the mall, like the way that people dressed in that it was always very modest in the sense you know the robes and different things like that.

Adrian: 25:03

But whenever you saw an American or whatever that was dressed in a way kind of like what you're used to in the West, it's almost like whoa, what are you doing? Why are you showing that? You know what I mean. And I felt to me like, in some ways, like they looked at it like wow, you're like a, a huzzy, you slut, look at you and it's like, oh, stop it, that's what our young people dress like when they go to call it, when they go to camp, I know. And it should kind of make you feel a little weird, you know, like it should be something about it. Again, I'm not saying that I'm dressed like a Muslim, I'm not saying that I'm just. I'm just pointing out, as Anton was just saying. Sorry, I did get issue oriented, didn't?

Anton: 25:43

I.

Aaron: 25:43

It's a different.

Adrian: 25:44

It does come a point. It does come a point, and that's between you and Jesus.

Aaron: 25:47

Aaron, what's the email address that can send those to?

Adrian: 25:51

I was like I tried to keep the podcast to be kind of like in this. You know all of the issues are going to push your buttons and that I want my personal to get in there, but anyway, there, there, she blows Anything you want to add, Aaron.

Aaron: 26:04

The only thing I added is I think Anton makes a great point about how it's rewired everything, because even in like I guess we'll say, the pornification of our society, we've taken again, if you're, from a biblical worldview scripturally favors the seatful beauty of vain, the woman that feared the Lord, she shall be praised Like.

Aaron: 26:25

When we start looking through it, we're, we are now pushing our young ladies to make what scripture would say is probably the lowest tier of things to worry about, the top tier of things to worry about, and also our young men, the lowest thing to worry about when you read through scripture, whether it's Proverbs 31 or the lowest thing that should be on your radar. Not saying it's not important, not saying the sexual relationship is not important, but it does change the whole, reverses, the whole biblical mandate, and so when you start looking at from a biblical standpoint, to think, oh man, to marry someone that you've never had sex with is like a mind-blowing thing in our culture, because our culture has said that sex is the main thing, and so people nowadays it's like I can't even imagine what it would be, because, again, point of occasion, what happens if we're not? What happens if she's not? What happens if? And so it changes our whole mindset. To think biblically Now looks almost ludicrous, when it should be the opposite way around.

Adrian: 27:27

That is, yeah, powerful word said and that's, you know, sadly, sadly the case and anyway, I could elaborate, but again I don't want to become issue-oriented with it. But we've alluded to artificial intelligence and tech advancement specifically and its roles that has had in making things even more, what the dangers in some of those are. There's some cautions to be aware of how to necessarily guide this beast that's going into when our that's definitely on the horizon for us as we continue to go in our culture and our lives. But as I was looking at this as it relates to pornography and artificial intelligence and those things I know for me, I found it to be a little bit scary as we kind of enter into this zone. Here's my likening that I give to it and then I'll talk to you and then we'll discuss this.

Adrian: 28:22

Guys, is it's not like information did not exist back in the early 2000s and then in the 90s and 2000s, not like information exists? There are books, there was a ton of books, and it's not like the internet invented information. It didn't. It just made it more widespread, and we know that, and so we discussed that during the last episode. Also, there was something else as well like counterfeit stuff has always been in existence, like it's always been. Like you know it's not like you know the movies you know Catch Me If you Can, or whatever it is people forging checks and counterfeiting money. That's been around forever. But I believe, if I were to compare the two as information and the internet, that correlation that they have, I think, is the same correlation that you're going to find between counterfeiting and also then, as it relates to what artificial intelligence, like it's going to take it to a new level, right, and so, with that being said, take that thought process and then fuse it into our conversation that we're talking about now. As it relates to, you know, information is always there, but the internet really spread it out, right. Then counterfeiting and all those things, those fake culture, is always been there, but I think it's going to take it and it's going to exasperate it that I think that, sadly enough that I'm just going to be a fatalist about it that our culture is truly just going to be a deep fake culture on every level, including at our soul level, on a sexual level as well, where we truly and I believe, with the aid of AI technologies and stuff will even be able to create even more enhanced sexual experiences, that people then will live even even more into the deep and just treacherous whole of their trying to then get out Like. If you continue to live in such a counterfeit world, you are going to be susceptible to believing untruths as it goes into the future.

Adrian: 30:27

Forgive my soliloquy guys, but I guess I am passionate about the fact because when I look in scripture and I see, like the, when you begin to lie like the devil is the father of lies, not the father of adultery, you have the father of cheating. He's the father of lies. And there's a reason for that, because when you lie and lie and lie and lie for so long, what happens is you become more susceptible to believing a lie. And the greatest example in scripture of that is the devil himself. You really realize in the book of the revelation that the devil believes he's going to beat God Like he really thinks he's going to get this army together and he is going to beat God Like he has lied so much that he is the one that is in the delusional state himself.

Adrian: 31:13

And I think that with all that's taking place in the counterfeit, counterfeit fitness that's not even a word that we are living inside of our culture, that what's taking place is that we are more susceptible, more than ever, to believe lies, and I think that now, when you add the sexual component, the gender component and all these other things, you start to see a little bit of the tip of the iceberg of what we're looking at going into the future. And I don't know, I just really look at it and I don't blame everything on AI, but I do blame it on us trying to be something that we're not in the airbrush version of our culture and enhancing those things. So, with those things being said, does that make sense of what I'm trying to paint out of, like how these things as information and the internet you know, obviously it may have exploded now with counterfeit and then in the information now exploding going into the future. Aaron, any thoughts then upon it or any type of way you see pornography ties into this AI conversation?

Aaron: 32:13

I definitely see lots of ties. The one thing I would say about the porn industry is they they're always on the cutting edge. They know how to put porn on anything and I know we've had this conversation like just privately and like in lots of circles. But it's like if the church was half as much into trying to spread the gospel as porn people are in producing porn and figuring out different ways that can get it out to the thing, we would have turned the world upside down ourselves. But when we start thinking through it, the one thing I would say is I know that you're talking about the counterfeit and how it's changing, but I believe that's where the money is, because that's really what we want and I feel like, whether that's, whether we have, whether we have and I'm not.

Aaron: 32:57

This is not saying that any of these things are simple. So whether you go to the Apple Vision Pro, the medical, we want to have a fake world. When you just look at our Facebook profiles right, pictures, right, like give me a filter over my face and I don't really want to look like what I actually do. In fact, just give me a cartoon character that will be my avatar, like, and I'm not saying anything is wrong. So please don't hear that. I'm just saying we don't want the reality to which we live and so we're trying to pursue those. So, whether that be sexually, whether that be just regular life, it is what we want. So that right now, because we live in a society where we have the money and the means for those things, we will pursue them. And so I think that the people that think that this is the direction that we're headed, because of the direction that we want to head, Well, you add an extra layer because it's almost like we're not rejecting it.

Adrian: 33:51

I mean, you know, we the counterfeit sometimes is a relief from the current reality of where we are, and I think that we enjoy that to some degree as society. Anton, what about you? Any thoughts upon the soliloquy, or any thoughts about how artificial intelligence then enhancing this matter about pornography?

Anton: 34:12

I think I'm just going to respond to this. A little quiz, because I really am surprised, but again I don't know how to say it. I'm processing the interpretation, as Aaron says, and I'm trying to formulate what it's like to me. It doesn't have to be this dark and do me I think that this is even dark and do me from the gloomy.

Adrian: 34:30

So oh, we must have been strong.

Anton: 34:37

They both felt a little gloomy and I think that there's hope in AI. There's. There's definitely good things. There's definitely good things that come with AI. And to Aaron's thing about the money, I think there are multiple kinds of lies.

Anton: 34:49

I'm not trying to be that guy, but there are lies of omission and I think that right now, that's kind of what's happening and I think a lot of people and I think it's more of an older generation problem than we're trying to, in my opinion do some things with that as a younger generation. Well, we're not to get that young anymore, but younger than some. I think the thing that we're trying to come to that is that I don't think I think some people have been sold something and they don't know what they have. I don't think young men and this is again the I will fight this through the nail and that's what I'm a big proponent of I don't think young men know what they're missing in a good marriage because they haven't witnessed many. I don't think young women know what they're missing in a good husband because they haven't experienced one. I think that a lot of this is misinformation. You want to say whatever fake news? I think some of it is because people are, you know, obviously degenerate.

Anton: 35:47

People have problems, but I think a lot of the big problem of pornography and AI and these things that they're coming for a place of people who have no purpose and no hope and I think we have we have that to give them.

Anton: 36:00

I just think that, again, the big problem is that marriages in the United States are so bad that, outside of just saying people should get married because the Bible said so, why would you encourage anyone to get married? Because it looks terrible, like it ends horribly for most of the time, it ends in divorce, and you're trying to convince people to do things that we haven't biblically done for a very long time. So I think there is a great argument to be had with these people that are addicted to porn, because you know we talked about, you know, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, like the things we need to think on. No one hears that verse and thinks of pornography. They think of that verse and think of happily ever after, like the little fairy tale. And I'm just saying that. In reality, I think we as Christians just need to sell a better product and stop complaining about people. I can sit.

Adrian: 36:52

I can get behind the fact of it being dark and gloomy and the world is gonna come to an end or anything.

Adrian: 36:59

But come on, anton, no one has to be a rocket scientist to be able to figure out that the Apple Vision Pro, a pervert that doesn't believe anything or have any moral ethical code, can take that and use a little room in their back hallway, inside of their whatever, whatever dumpy place that they rent out, and men come in there, put that thing on and not try to pick the picture, but so much. But let them enjoy themselves in a sexual way, in a way God never intended, by making it more real than ever, like I don't think I'm a doom and gloom prophecy builder just because of the fact that I'm just like, I'm not dumb, I realize that there's a lot of these things that are being that will be used to not just recreate somebody seeing happy birthday, you know, you know, and make everything really come to life. As I turn my head and I see these things and maybe this is what people said about the internet you know.

Adrian: 37:54

But I'm just wondering, will time look back and just be like, well, it's just like. It is just like the internet, adrian, like do you think I'm just an old geezer that was in the 2004 talking about Google? Does that make sense?

Anton: 38:09

I don't think you are, I think and again, because I don't think you're wrong, but I think that the real problem is not AI, it's the culture in which AI is being developed in okay, I can get behind that and to me that that that speaks to well, fix the culture, because AI is not gonna go anywhere, the internet's not gonna go anywhere.

Anton: 38:26

So you have to have a discussion about well, why is the best option for young men to view porn? What should young men again, that's something like what is the alternative where young men supposed to be doing? And in my opinion, we don't really have a good answer to that question. I don't you have a good answer to what should young men, women, be aspiring to? Who are, who are the heroes of young women right now? Who are they supposed to aspire to? Be Beyonce, because that's not far off. So I'm just saying, like what? What is their aspiration? What are young men's aspiration? If it's their favorite rapper, then why are you even arguing because that's what their favorite rapper does? Yeah, that's a societal problem.

Adrian: 39:02

I can see that, yeah, and that probably leads into it. You know that. The final question, then, about the church's responsibility in battling this, and I'm curious, aaron, you've given your life to church ministry, sir. So basically, with that being said, how do you think the church has done? And, as Anton's presented, it's like there's really nothing for them to turn to, because we kind of view marriage as kind of like the golden handcuffs that you kind of have or get your ball and chain because you know how she's gonna be. You know, it hasn't been always viewed in that kind of realm. So what do you? What say?

Aaron: 39:40

yeah, um, can you rephrase your question, cuz I just want to make sure I'm speaking to your question how's the church done?

Adrian: 39:45

how is the church done in battling this basically?

Aaron: 39:48

I am, I think, see, growing up. I believe that it was hammered. It was hammered, some of these things were hammered down, but in such a wrong way. And I don't say this like I think people are trying to do what they want, right, but I don't think you and I'm gonna say this tongue-in-cheek, kind of being silly, but like you, can't tell teenage boys what the website is that they shouldn't be looking at.

Aaron: 40:14

True fact yeah, like hey, if you go to such-and-such, never type in comm, you have to type in dot org, because if you go to dot or dot com that's gonna be bad and you got 15 people in the room. We're gonna be like soon as I get home, right, I haven't taken a note and chop up one time till that day and I wrote down the dot com address. But you can't do this, you can't do that, but yet you do have to have instruction. And honestly, right now, and young adult, our young adults, were walking through the book of Titus and I honestly believe that it comes down to what you know I was talking about, that the age men are sober, grave, temperate, self-controlled, sound and faith. They have a deep walk with God in charity and patience and they take that and take it down to verse on what six and then young men likewise challenged them to be sober, minded, like that, so reminded to act like they have some sense, like older men to teach the younger men to act like they have, to show them patterns of good works. And they're teaching showing on corruptness. Their graves are sincere, their sound speech. That cannot be condemned that. He does the contrary part, maybe ashamed, having nothing this evil to say about. Like when we start looking at this, I believe the church has not done well, because I think we've tried to do from the pulpit on one preaching service, what an older man taking a side, a younger man like Antons, that and modeling, and I think that is where it is it's lacking the most.

Aaron: 41:51

And I was talking through with one of our unit, all the walking through our Winston I by was there were walks, the Titus, and I was talking about how one time I remember Brother Gatlin riding with the car. I'll say, mr Gowen, this in case you're not from the church world, but hey, yeah, in my name, in my mind his name is still first name is brother and his last name is Gowen. So, but Brother Gowen was driving the car with me and I remember Brother Gowen put this like weirdest crazy radio station on while we were driving down the road and I remember like I, just because I was quiet, but then I didn't say a thing. I'm just like sitting there and I'm like I have no idea what's going on and then, like I changed it back to get a little WTJ and he's like Aaron, you know what? That music is never gonna get you, that man, you're not even interested in that, you think that's weird, then you're gonna have to watch the stuff that you like. That will take you away from the Lord. And I remember I still remember that to this day like a little crazy lesson that he was trying to do, whether he did it right, wrong and different.

Aaron: 42:48

I still remember what he said because he said hey, you're the thing that you're gonna have to worry about, and not the things that you think are really weird and out there, they're gonna be the things that you really like, but they'll take you away from the Lord. And I'm like, oh man, but I needed those kind of relationships in my life, more so than I needed to go to a youth conference one time and have somebody yell crazy stuff from the pulpit and jump on top of it and scream about pornography. I needed that relationship more so, and so I think the church has not always done a good job, and some churches maybe there may be churches are killing it. So I'm not trying to criticize everybody, but I'm saying it as a whole.

Aaron: 43:23

I think we have to get back to that tightest method of the older man who has some patience and a sober mind looking at a younger man who, again, is gonna drive his car too fast, gonna be looking at women, gonna be doing all these things because that's what younger men without direction do and says hey, can you come with me for a minute, let's go to lunch. Hey, can I, can you walk with me through this? Hey, why don't you come over to me, my own, our family's house, and have dinner? Yes, and do those kind of things. And that's what we're gonna have to see as far as the church, more so than and even like just giving them constructive things to do. I'm not trying to go on a long monologue here, but like going to play basketball with younger guys, going to go on do things that actually give them something to do, so that they're not always trying to look for and find something, because this is what every other guy they know is doing.

Adrian: 44:16

But that's my thoughts oh man, I think your thoughts are great. I even as you were describing it. I know I've already earned the title of Mr doom and gloom so far, so you thought I was doing my answer, but I'm gonna keep my comments brief and then we're gonna swing to and time for that final for this as we close up here. But obviously Aaron's getting his life church ministry. I've given my life church ministry. You know, 16 years old is the first time I been preached out of my, outside of my church, right? So I've been in a couple of churches in my time and I've seen ones that do well of handling these matters and young and people that are having struggles with this matter, and I seen the ones who do not. And so I this is just me if trying to summarize a big topic in a little bit of time is, I would say, the churches that have a pulpit based church culture. They do not do well. Here's what I mean by pulpit based church, meaning that the instruction that you are supposed to have for life and everything comes from the pulpit. So you know they say Sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night, sunday school, you know what I mean. Three to thrive, all that stuff where every bit of your instruction only comes from the pulpit because the reason is I'm a preacher, right, and as a preacher, when you're preaching, let's just say you're gonna preach upon this matter, about thought, life and pornography. Let's preach, dude.

Adrian: 45:42

The Bible is not rated G. I'm sorry, it's not. There are certain things that when you do talk about them, you have to be very cautious, mindful of your audience. When is the time you're preaching at church service and there's not a nine-year-old present? Now, if there is a nine-year-old present, I do not want you to discuss this matter of the woman who was exploited and then her body was chopped into 12 pieces and sent to the tribes of Israel. That might, that is not something I want you to tell this to Janae, but all scripture is profitable and so, therefore, that story should be discussed at some point, meaning that when you look at if there's never a time for whether it's a small group, whether it's just one-on-one, whatever it is, there's never a time to be able to have those hey, lord, teach us how to pray moments when the disciples were surrounded with Jesus and he wasn't necessarily in front of the 5,000 and breaking the bread in front of them.

Adrian: 46:37

But it's just a private conversation of biblical matters. If that doesn't happen, then I don't see them doing well, because it usually falls on one or two sides. It falls on the side, as Anta Aaron said, where somebody will say the shocking statements from the pulpit about pornography and they'll bring up curiosity that does not need to be brought up in that kind of setting or the tendency will be to avoid it altogether, and therefore you have people who are struggling that do not know where to turn to go for help as it relates to these problems. So I would say that pulpit-based culture is the only thing I could think of as far as wording is concerned, where there's never a time where we can have a conversation, because, let's be honest, some of these topics discussed are not something that need necessarily to be brought up in a public arena. Anton, what about you? How do you think the church has done in battling this societal cancer?

Anton: 47:29

I think it's terrible. As I looked earlier, I think again it's the race problem of our day, because I do think one. I think churches are behind times, I think. So I'm gonna somewhat disagree with Aaron, because I can think of all the camps I ever went to. They had talked about things that are a problem, like 15 years ago, like they weren't even often talking about websites. They were like the magazine hustler magazine. It's like hustler magazine. How old are you? It's only to me the discussion was always somewhere that was so ridiculously foreign to the audience to which they were speaking. So I would say, first, churches are behind and they really even know what's going on or what young people are doing anyway, which is why young people in churches get away with a lot of things they shouldn't, because there's no one there who's actually up on what's happening.

Aaron: 48:16

Can I say one thing real quick? I was preaching a thing at a Christian school and they were like yes, our principal keeps talking about pop-ups. What even is a pop-up? You gotta watch out the pop-up. I think it did crack me up. They were like I don't even know what pop-up is.

Anton: 48:36

Yeah, that's one of the reasons. I do feel that it's a struggle, because I do think unless, as Aaron is alluding to having those counselors that are younger, I think that they're talking about a problem. It's like, today, even only fans you have to explain to people what only fans is, and it's like, well, that's what most teenage boys are probably doing. So if you have no clue what it is, you can't really speak to it in the authoritative way. So I would say that Then I would say the second is I find that most of it especially again going back to my upbringing and my experience it's always been an odd blame game between purity culture, where it's a girl's fault, where all men are dogs. We get into this. This is the dichotomy you go to the one class on the one side, girls cover up everything because the men can't help themselves, and then you go to the men's class and it's like you're a dog, a rabbit animal who will just lash out if let out of a cage, and it's like and it's okay, I'm scared, exactly.

Anton: 49:34

And it's like just save it for your wife, get married real young. It's just this weird and to me that also to me, was never helpful because it doesn't make any sense and it gives you no real recourse. And I would say, lastly is a and it can go from church all the way to society. There is this move, I think, to try to change what we mean when we say waiting until mayor. Again, I guess it goes back to purity culture.

Anton: 50:04

But when you're talking about women being chased and men being chased, I will say that I think we have made this weird analogy where porn is not as bad as X, because a lot of the conversation is not about porn and again, that's my experience. It's about premarital sex. Don't have premarital sex, don't do these things. But if you watch porn, it's like three degradations lower on the sin scale. So if you had, if a man couldn't help himself, especially if it's a man, it's a different conversation and I don't think, even from my perspective which again Aaron was saying something completely different than what my experience has been we don't really talk about porn as it's as harmful as a lot of things, that it clearly is as harmful as Well, I'm about to say, even your.

Adrian: 50:57

I didn't know if you were gonna try to be a little bit softer on the church, but I guess not.

Anton: 51:01

And so.

Adrian: 51:02

but that relevance discussion that you had, I mean that portion, I mean spot on, and I believe just that, as when you look, especially if you're gonna be speaking upon something to a group of people or whatever, it is like dude, if you don't know what TikTok is, just leave it alone. If you don't know, because you're not helping yourself. When you try to make those little cultural, little connecting points and they connect you to something called stupidity, you're just not being helpful whatsoever. But anyway, can I ask this real quick?

Aaron: 51:37

Sure, can I get your clarity and tunnel what you're saying and when you were saying, like the different perspectives to which we're looking at this. I don't know if I quite grasped that.

Anton: 51:48

I don't know what you mean.

Aaron: 51:49

You said a little bit ago. You were like it wasn't my a little bit ago. You were like this wasn't my experience, but what Aaron referenced earlier and your reference was the church how I said it versus how you see it. I wasn't sure if I grabbed that. Maybe I'm not being clear for what and if it is, we can skip it and keep moving on. But I was just trying to get your thoughts and I don't know if I fully grasped what you were saying was the difference.

Anton: 52:12

I have never heard an entire sermon preach to, especially and it goes all the way to the men side, the women side, when you take it in the back rooms and youth group or whatever.

Anton: 52:23

I have never once heard an entire discussion on pornography in my life. All right, I gotcha, it always is. It will get mentioned usually in one of these discussions, but it's never actually porn. Because, again, and I would say to what Adrian said at the beginning, when people say, why are you having this conversation? Because to me I do not know. Really I can, and I even when you try to watch sermons or something of that nature, you'll only find a couple sermons that are directly on porn, although literally, again, name something else that is done by most of the church. Just statistically prove it. That is a sin. We all recognize this sin. There's no debate on that discussion. That is not preached on in this way.

Anton: 53:08

Because, again, it's usually someone will quote the verse if a man looks at a woman to lust after her, he's committed adultery with her in her heart. Don't do that. That's shameful. That's usually as long as it goes. After that, we switch gears to a whole conversation about women or something else. How a woman need to cover up is something else like to me, that's always been the shift.

Anton: 53:30

What you really have is do not physically have Premarital sex. That's usually the discussion and I think that that's, to me Is why and again, this is what I'm not trying to go with some long rant, but that, to me, is why you see a lot of young men who do not have premarital sex but watch porn, because that's pretty much what they begin. Because I'm saying, like, even me, as a logical person, that's what would follow if it's like so I'm a man who's a rabid dog, who's locked in the cage, and I shouldn't have premarital sex, or I have a baby, and that'd be terrible and ruin my whole life and you don't want me to like, you shouldn't like. Look at women who are here, blah, blah. The only thing that follows is look at when we don't know, then who's harmed by this. Looking to me, it's like it's, it's an irrational. Obviously, this is where that leads and I think that's why it's led that.

Aaron: 54:21

Yes, can I? I'm gonna. I don't want to open up a whole other can of worms and so I'm not going to. But I agree with you anytime. So I see what you're saying.

Aaron: 54:29

The only thing I think the the hard part that I've seen from the church side of doing that and Like I, you, pastor, what I talked about porn even as a young adult like I work I mean young adults pastor like working with guys.

Aaron: 54:41

I don't think I've ever taught like a youth of young adults thing yet, but I've only been in young about past like a year. But I would say one of the things that I think is frowned on and I learned this one we were at our last ministry if you actually Bring in the resources for porn and start talking about it, people look down on you. And so because I remember I found the book, the I, I found better sense and but this I still think it's one of the best books. It's still when I read often the purity principle by Rami Alcorn Um and I enjoy the book because I think it helps me be vigilant. But I remember having bringing that book into our bookstore at our last ministry and Someone literally told me if my husband came in here and bought that book and I saw it on his nightstand. I would be upset.

Anton: 55:27

But can.

Aaron: 55:27

I say what should?

Anton: 55:28

I can respond to this because this is exactly my point. This is why I compare it to racism, because it's a sin that everybody is experiencing. But if you talk about it, everyone gets upset.

Anton: 55:40

When it's like wouldn't it be better if people stop watching porn? Well, yes, how are people gonna stop watching porn if we don't address the fact that porn is sin and they're watching porn? No, just hide all the books. Doesn't think that to me? That's why I think it's why you have to have the conversation, because there really isn't another, it really isn't another sin that, in my opinion, affects the church in that way that, for some reason, people almost fight the discussion of porn, and I mean it from either side, because if you talk about the other side which to me also, we really didn't talk about, I'm not gonna try to go down that entire road. I'm like you also have to address the fact there are women who enjoy doing porn or engaging in porn. Yeah, you also have to address the fact that there are men who are in positions in churches that view pornography on a regular basis. Yeah, you cannot have a conversation to me about that. That's why, when you ask if the church is unwell, that's why I am more doom and gloom on the church, because it is utterly ridiculous to me that Often, whenever you have conversations about porn, the people who speak the most loud against having the conversation Yep, yep, they're the people who upset.

Anton: 56:50

It's like the only fans girl who's literally doing porn. She'll talk about it all day. Have a whole conversation with the overtee. The guys who are watching it were unsaved at work. I'll tell you every scene I watched last night. What talked to a Christian man who's hiding in his basement watching it? Why don't we need to talk about it? I don't understand, don't know how this thing it's. This was odd thing in my life.

Aaron: 57:12

Wow.

Adrian: 57:14

Well and again, as you were mentioning about how it relates to, you know, the church, and when the church is participant within it, it's hard to have a voice against it, and that's as that's why I do get behind the comparison that you make of, then comparison of race, then racism as the pornography.

Anton: 57:33

But bring a book about a anti-racism to church.

Adrian: 57:36

Why is he?

Anton: 57:37

bringing that nonsense in here.

Adrian: 57:42

Yeah, I have to let this conversation continue and move, but the aspect of how females I do, I do want to unpack that at some point. But just so you know, as we look to the tips and tools coming up in the next episode, that I really we really want to take the time not to leave it to be like, okay, if a person, then Joe, the pornography. But we definitely want to not necessarily preach a sermon about it but like even Reserve a large space of time just for like there's victory, there is life, there is Crock. The power of the gospel breaks every chain and my biblical worldview that demands that this is wrong and is objectifying and it is Breaking what the image bear the covenant relationship is supposed to be like within a believer that same Condemnation that you see, righteousness and peace have kissed each other. There is hope beyond. There is God can give victory and we want to discuss that and not just leave it hanging and just condemn what is being taken place.

Adrian: 58:43

So just just to make sure that is clear and not just be like, yep, that's society's woes. Now move on to the next topic that we're going to now then say is society's woes. We always want to point to that there is an answer, and I promise you that his name starts with J and ends in S and has five letters, as we point every single time To then in those circumstances, situations. So anyway, covered a lot and I know that this best shows probably a little bit longer than most, but it is a big topic as it relates to the aspect, then, of the purification of a society. Is there any type of follow-up or all hearts and minds clear as it relates to this topic specifically?

Aaron: 59:22

clear clear.

Adrian: 59:24

Okay, you have new terminology now, all right. Well, if all our demands are clear, we definitely thank you for listening here to this episode again not the happiest topic, but hey look, sometimes culture gets messy and this is one of the messy things. And, as Anthony the mentioned about the matter, about it being racism, I could understand it not being popular if you then look at it through that scope, but we do pray that we'll be mindful, will be vigilant and try our best, going into the future, to make sure that we're doing the right, making the right steps to help those who come behind us have victory. Oh, we certain areas in our life and we'll dive into that a little bit more next time. Well, we thank you for joining us this time. You look forward to joining us next time around.