Ever wondered what books can reshape your perspective on race, work, or even your own identity? Our latest episode takes you on a literary expedition, where you'll journey through thought-provoking works from "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius to "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. We'll share how these classics hold profound relevance in our contemporary world and discuss how balancing our career motives with secular or religious worldviews can be a delicate act, guided by insights from Tim Keller's "Every Good Endeavor." It's not just a podcast; it's a roundtable of diverse recommendations and a deep dive into the power of the written word.
Hold on to your bookmarks, because we're about to reveal our personal bookshelves - the good, the bad, and the enlightening. You'll get a taste of everything from "Destiny of the Republic" by Candace Millard to the managerial wisdom found within "It's Okay to Be the Boss." Hear about the books that struck a chord with us and the ones we decided to close early. We also tackle the challenging yet essential question: which reads are absolutely vital outside of Scripture? Our conversation delves through genres and centuries, exploring the enduring impact of literature on faith, personal growth, and the human condition.
Thanks for Listening! Follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Ever wondered what books can reshape your perspective on race, work, or even your own identity? Our latest episode takes you on a literary expedition, where you'll journey through thought-provoking works from "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius to "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. We'll share how these classics hold profound relevance in our contemporary world and discuss how balancing our career motives with secular or religious worldviews can be a delicate act, guided by insights from Tim Keller's "Every Good Endeavor." It's not just a podcast; it's a roundtable of diverse recommendations and a deep dive into the power of the written word.
Hold on to your bookmarks, because we're about to reveal our personal bookshelves - the good, the bad, and the enlightening. You'll get a taste of everything from "Destiny of the Republic" by Candace Millard to the managerial wisdom found within "It's Okay to Be the Boss." Hear about the books that struck a chord with us and the ones we decided to close early. We also tackle the challenging yet essential question: which reads are absolutely vital outside of Scripture? Our conversation delves through genres and centuries, exploring the enduring impact of literature on faith, personal growth, and the human condition.
Thanks for Listening! Follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Hey and welcome to another episode of the podcast. Thank you so much for all those who join us. We just came out of a heavy series and so, as we do, we're going to do a little something different and go with a reading check-in Not too different, I should say, because we've done these occasionally, kind of to see what we've been reading especially Aaron and Anton, what they've been reading and different aspects of what other books they have ready to read coming up in the future. And so, as we take this episode to really just think through a lot of these different books, this is going to be a lot of tips and tools that, if you would like to be able to read different aspects of culture, race and just a range of different things, hopefully you can have your pen and paper ready to go to be able to get some book recommendations. And we're going to talk about some books that you books that really didn't hit the spot for us. Maybe we didn't even finish reading them. So a lot to chew on during this episode.
Speaker 1:So, with that being said, we're going to start off with a question, like we normally do, but since we're going to start with a question that relates to the topic at hand. So here's the question On a scale of zero to 10, what is your love for reading? Where does it stand? Obviously, 0 being. You can't stand it. 10, you absolutely love it. I think I know the answer for some of these, but we'll start with Anton on this one. Actually, anton, 0 to 10,. What is your love for reading?
Speaker 2:Let's go 7.
Speaker 1:I don't know. 7. Oh, that's so noncommittal.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:That's why that's where I stand. Seven, come on. You gotta give us a little bit more than that of why the seven.
Speaker 2:I mean because I enjoy reading quite a bit, but I'm not gonna sit here and act like reading is the only thing that I enjoy, like, yeah, that's the thing, it's a seven, it's, it's above average. I obviously enjoy it, but again, it's not so much more special than any other form of media. I still enjoy movies. I still enjoy other things.
Speaker 1:Gotcha A seven. Let me go ahead. I'm going to go because I think we all know in the podcast what Aaron's is. I'm going to pretty much go ahead and go with. I'm going to tell my number. It's actually five. I'm out of five Because here's what I judge it by is, if I'm on a vacation and just say my wife and I are going out. We had the opportunity to go to Australia a little while ago. Man, it was fantastic.
Speaker 1:I did not carry a stack of books. If I love to read, it seemed like I would then be carrying this huge stack. Now, here is where it's different and I will say I love the benefits of reading, to make it that, even though I am a five, that I would go ahead and read more than what an average five, because I love the academic benefit that it brings to the table, that it brings to the table, and so that's why I do read and I kind of force myself to get into the habit to be able to make sure that I got some audio book going or I got a physical and handbook going as well. So I like the benefits. It's kind of like saying, yeah, I like the benefits of being healthy, but I like to eat Blue Bell every day. I mean, I know it sounds kind of double standard like, but I don't know. That's the only way I can describe it.
Speaker 1:I place it at a five, but I read probably more than a five because of the fact that you know, hey look, the only way I'm going to be able to gain this knowledge for you to hit the next step is for those and you'll probably see that in my book list as well of why it is that I do read. So, Aaron Burden, surprise us all, On a scale of zero to ten, what's your love for reading?
Speaker 3:I'm going to say eight or nine. I am but the reason I'm not going to attend, and so this gets a technical nerd out and probably splitting hairs. But I love reading, but I don't know if it's reading as much as I like, as as I like having my mind stretched and what I'm learning about in podcasts and such is, and I'm saying this on a podcast, right? So this makes it that sometimes you don't there's a lot of podcasting who don't develop an idea in a day where everybody and their brother has a podcast.
Speaker 3:I would no, but that I'm like sometimes I need thought leaders, not thought leaders. That's the wrong way. I need people to challenge my thinking in more than a way of just like I had a whim so I grabbed a mic and turned it on and I don't think that's what we do and I hope that we bring more to the table than that. But I would say that's one of the reasons. If I could get it another way, I would, but so that's why I put it at eight or nine. I do enjoy reading for pleasure, but I would say, like Anton Well. I would say like Anton Well, no, I can't.
Speaker 3:That's why I probably go with something. I, if you gave me most of the time, if I'm by myself, I would not probably watch him. I'm not saying Anton will, so maybe I'll back that part of Anton, but I won't watch a movie by myself and I usually don't watch television by myself. But if you're talking about something that I do by myself for entertainment, it would be an audio audiobook or reading a book, because that is what I prefer over them. So that's the only thing. I give myself an eight or nine over Anton seven, and so I don't think I'm splitting hairs, but I do love reading. But the biggest thing is I love being challenged.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that we all enjoy being having our thoughts, you know, provoked, and with that being said, obviously I mean the podcast and, as you were mentioning earlier about hopefully it's not this three guys turning on a mic. I mean I mean the books we've consumed just for preparation for this is almost to me just as important as before we hit that record button as well, and definitely hoping to bring something to the table, a new perspective, a new light as well.
Speaker 2:Anyway, keep the podcast going. I think we interpreted the question differently. There's how much do I enjoy reading and there's how much I read the same question. I would ask somebody to work out how much do I enjoy working out or how much do I work out they're two very different questions.
Speaker 2:I do read a lot, but if someone were like, hey, man, do you just enjoy this activity? It's like running. Do I enjoy running? No, do I do it? Yes, to be healthy, but I hate everything. It depends on what we mean by the question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, and I guess the love of it is just kind of like I guess the question would have been just truly passionate to just enjoy doing it, like there are some people who just love to run, like that's just what they do, like they're they're going to die, and like I tried to love it and I never did, but I did it, but I tried to love it and it just really it never clicked into step two, but anyway, I see what you're saying, how we were. We kind of gave both of our answers, though it the love for reading and then how much we do read too as well, because it is we do find to be very important. But anyway, with that segue, let me just ask this question, anton, then what have you been reading lately, and what's well not. What should we be reading? We'll get to that, but just lately books, or even just the other media forms too, with podcasts, whatever. What have you been reading lately?
Speaker 2:uh, I broke it down into three categories. Right now and currently, I'm rereading two things that I've read in the past Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, you mean like.
Speaker 1:Marcus Aurelius from history. Yes, oh, my Okay.
Speaker 3:Anton's a classics guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's big, he's a stoic thought leader. I enjoy that book, the Myth of Sisyphus, which is another. Again, that's why it's more of an existential. Well, you asked me what I was reading.
Speaker 3:No, that's good 's more of an existential. Well, you asked me what I was reading.
Speaker 1:No, that's good I was thinking I'm reading craig rochelle, apparently not marcus aurelius. Um, I'm writing them down like I don't know how to spell these guys. Anyway, go ahead um and uh.
Speaker 2:the last one is I usually have, like some, either form of religious sex. So it would be Confessions by St Augustine.
Speaker 1:Oh OK.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's what I'm reading.
Speaker 1:I mean now, this is not being smart, I really am curious about this. But like these are not light readings, I mean none of this could be this. But like these are not light readings, I mean none of this could be, I mean something of that age category just by the. Just the definition of words and how they change obviously would make it that this is not light reading. So, uh, what are you? Why can I? Can I ask that? Does that mean, without sounding like I'm a smart outlet?
Speaker 2:uh, I don't. I don't really understand the question, but um, like my page really is like is it just jumping off?
Speaker 1:it just jumping off the shelf at you?
Speaker 2:I think all three of those are as important today as they were when they were written. I mean, the entire point of Stoicism is to endure hardship without complaint. In a day when everyone wants to complain about being a victim, I think it's completely relevant, as it was at the time, to have a reason for your suffering. Um, I think is incredibly important. Um, when I'm like the myth of sisyphus I mean sisyphus is the person who has to take the boulder up a hill and it comes back down again.
Speaker 2:And I would say the entire premise of especially the myth of sisyphus and this, whatever is that. You know, we try to do so many good things, like you try to save the world, you try to build something and then apart, it's like the boulder comes back down the hill. And having that both discipline to just push the boulder back uphill because that's your responsibility and not walk away or shirk that is again relevant today. Talking about when he was young, how he lived a hedonistic or just a lifestyle that was, let's say, not right, just for pleasure and how his thought reflection is that we don't need to live for pleasure. We have to aspire to a godly purpose or our life is going to have no meaning in eternity. I think it's also again, I think it's just as important today as it was when he wrote it.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm glad to give you, to get a little bit of a context of what the books and stuff were about. Like the Boulder guy, I think I've heard of that and different things, and so to understand you know at least where they're coming from. I guess, when I'm just listening to it the myth of Sisyphus I'm like I just, yeah, a whole lot of different things came to mind. I wasn't thinking that. Anyway, things came to mind. I wasn't thinking about it.
Speaker 3:Anyway, sorry, just leave it at that anyway, with that being said, aaron, um, probably it's a list, but let's hear the list what you've been reading lately uh, I'm just trying, still trying to see if I could even say the myth of that guy's name over a podcast mike without, uh, a lisp coming through, uh. So I'm like, uh, the myth of the Boulder guy. That's how good it is.
Speaker 1:The Asian guy.
Speaker 3:Right now my main reading is I'm teaching a workshop at our church for our young adults about the gospel at work, and so, how, what you do in life as a job, career we're talking about occupation versus vocation, and so I've been doing a lot of reading on work. So, um, I think I just finished, uh, work. I think the guy's name is suzman, but it's totally a, a secular manifesto. Uh, in fact, he would laugh at christianity or any religion, and he does so in his book, and so I wanted to hear, um, a secular side of why people go to work, why, because I know I've been growing up around the biblical model, but I just wanted to hear lots of other ones. And so, um, so it's like a thing on work, and then love and work by marcus buckingham. Um, and then then I have some on the christian side every good endeavor by tim keller, um, the grace at work by brian chapel.
Speaker 3:So I've been just kind of chewing through a lot of books.
Speaker 3:I think right now the actual book that I'm reading is Status Game, and it's by Will Storr, about how we look for status in things, and ultimately he calls it a game, the game we play with ourselves to be the best to look the best, and so it's an interesting thing as I look back now at all the books that I've read on those, about how, even as Christians, we have a pretty secular view of work and why we go to work.
Speaker 3:If we want retirement, we want benefits. I'm not saying anything's wrong with them. I'm just saying, when you read the scripture about why we work and we work as under the Lord of God and do it hardly as unto the Lord, what was the last one? Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Don't be concerned with things that Gentiles chase after. It's like we have a very different look at work than biblical and the biblical aspect of work. So that's what I've been reading on most of those, and I know I kind of ran through a lot of them, um, cause I don't recommend all of them, but I do recommend, um, every good endeavor by Tim Keller.
Speaker 1:Um, I do recommend that one. Wow, Um, as you were talking about the one about the job place, that one's really registered with me. Um, currently I'm one of the managers in training at the front of house at Chick-fil-A, and so I'm affectionately called um names at the Go ahead, tell us. Well, I mean, as far as among the workers, mustard man is one of them, but one of the ones that it's kind of stuck is they call me Pops. And so, because of the fact that I'm pretty much most of the people there are 19 years old that I'm working with right and they see me like I'm pretty much there, most of the people there are 19 years old that I'm working with Right and so, and they see me like I'm almost like their dad, cause I'm old enough to be their dad. And so so when, cause typically I will be the one that if they're like dating advice or any type of career advice, they're like Adrian, I know you've done through this before man, can you talk to me about this or whatever? That's usually the conversations that I have a lot of times with my coworkers and stuff now, and so obviously Pops is where it comes from. It's just like wow.
Speaker 1:I like to read that now with this in mind, because typically I've worked in the Christian bubble. I guess that makes sense. There wasn't a time where I need to be. You obviously got to be filled with spirit to be able to do anything for God. It just wasn't one of those things where I was in front of people that were not believers. Literally my every day is that now, and so, um, interesting that that, like letting our work glorify God, that'd be an interesting read going right now. Um anything else, any other commentary you had upon Aaron's books, anton?
Speaker 3:Can I add one more thing real quick before?
Speaker 1:Anton does.
Speaker 3:I would say for fun. I was ring, I just finished and, um, the one I was going to throw out there is, I think, it's in defense of the republic. Um, it's a history book about, um, james garfield and I thought it was super good. Uh, you thought it was going to be like a trump thing I well, 2024, there's a lot of stuff going on. No Destiny of the Republic by.
Speaker 3:Candace Millard. But it's a story about the assassination attempt well, the assassination of James Garfield and it's on threads. It had been recommended to me a couple of times by people on threads and I was like I'll try it. And I tried it and I was like, oh man, that was really good and it was a good book. And for a history book to be entertaining to me it means it has to be a good history book. So it's probably not what Anton would want, because he wants the straight facts.
Speaker 1:I needed a well-told story.
Speaker 2:Anton, but it was good. Um, I can't say in that book.
Speaker 3:So that's fair, oh my.
Speaker 2:That's hilarious. That's a lot like uh laws of power.
Speaker 3:I thought they were very similar books but I like them both, except laws of power feels like the evil people's manifesto.
Speaker 2:At least status game doesn't sound like an evil manifesto status games is if you read laws of power and thought how could we make it nicer? I agree.
Speaker 3:I agree with that. When I read Laws of Power, I'm like should I be reading this? It sounds like every villain's manifesto right here, like how do you take advantage of people, how do you crush them, how do you dominate them? Here's an easy way to do it To gain status Wow, well.
Speaker 1:well, if you are lost in the podcast, you are not alone.
Speaker 3:no idea what y'all are talking about anyway, tell them to read anything by robert green it's fair, I love robert green I somehow don't find that surprising, but all right
Speaker 1:what I've been reading lately, uh, is not as exciting quite pretty much. If you see, whatever I'm reading, it's what, the stage of life I'm in and the season of life I'm in at that point, Because typically I like the end benefit of reading. So therefore I'm reading about what exactly is taking place in my life. So Aaron recommended and he gave me the book From Strength to Strength, and so that has been a good book. It really has Basically moving from one path this person from career path to another career path. And anyway, because one person told me a quote before I got fired from my job it was, the guy said Adrian, what you need to do to be successful at your past career might not be the thing you need to do to be successful in your next Right. And so he just said that to me just randomly one day successful you're next right.
Speaker 1:And so he just said that to me just randomly one day and it was just kind of like, okay, just take it for what it's worth, just kind of chew on that, and then you know, then to read that book is really been like building on that to the second power. And once again it's written from a, you know, not necessarily a Christian perspective or anything like that, but it's definitely one of those things where there's a ton of nuggets to be able to then to be able to take and receive from. I don't want to. I'm going to just mention a couple of these real quick, just the names of them, because they're going to come up later on. But the Theology of Biblical Counseling, the Emotionally Healthy Leader, I'm going to talk a little bit about those.
Speaker 1:But the other ones that because I started doing managing and just like working to make sure that I could be an effective manager in the corporate space. So books like it's Okay to Be the Boss, the E-Myth, necessary Endings, the First 90 Days, these books have been the ones to pretty much just kind of get my thinking upon. What does it mean to be able to be a manager? I mean, tell people what to do clearly, in a way that you don't gain resentment from them, so that you can be able to then have a path to which you need to get to. And so making sure because I think my proclivity is that way, to be a manager and I sold, obviously, with that being this case, I wanted to make sure I'm doing as well as possible. So those are the books. You know, leadership, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:The book that's, quote unquote, in my hand right now is a biography, and that biography is about the person who started the International Continental oh, I'm sorry, the International Cooperation Ministries is a global outreach program that starts churches. I'm reading that biography right now. It's the book that's actually inside of my hand. Those are the ones I've been reading. Recently we asked that question. Let's go to the flip side, anton. What books have you stopped reading?
Speaker 2:Maybe ones that you started and be like um, there's kind of been two types or categories that I think have have kind of shifted. Um, one of the books that I started reading racism without racist. Um, I think there are some modern takes on the racist conversation that just came out because it was a popular thing to do and they were completely unresearched and un really anything, but they just hopped on that trend. Also, the self-help books I think the one that I was talking about was Love Yourself, like your Life Depends On it.
Speaker 2:The self-love books that also, I think, hopped on a trend and they're not psychologists or anything, they're just people spouting aphorism at each other, have no real point or purpose and don't actually go anywhere or have like any call to do anything better than you're doing in your life, which I think are honestly probably more, um, hurtful than helpful. Um, yeah, so probably those two categories of books and those are just two examples. But I think there's like again, a whole genre of self-help that have just become say these nice things in the mirror, and a whole genre of race conversations which has just been white people bad, black people good, and that's about the only thing they've really dug into. I don't think they've done any more research than that they've done any more research than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just because you have one like good stringing point, like one, you know one of those little yeah, that's a great little zinger right there, it doesn't mean you need to write a book.
Speaker 3:It's like it takes a little bit more. I had a tweet. Now I can write a book?
Speaker 1:yes, pretty much, and then even the books that that this is not on my list.
Speaker 1:I only have like one or two, but as far as that are on my list are books that truly were a blog post and I say this gently but or is a sermon? Basically, somebody took a sermon and they wrote it out, and to me that's not a book. And it could be a book for some people and I'm happy for them that they enjoy that kind of thing, but to me there's a level of thought and intentionality and depth where I have to really zone in. And I'm not saying I passively listen to a sermon, but I'm just saying a sermon is a different form of communication than the other. And so those two, I think, would be the ones that I'm not necessarily, you know, jumping on the bandwagon about. Like I said, put it in print form, make sure there's discipleship materials all over the world. I'm sure that's great, but I'm just saying, as far as the book that I'm going to take the time to read, I'm not sure if I'm there. Aaron, what books have you stopped or reading or abandoned?
Speaker 3:I haven't given mine yet, but let me, let me. Let me hear yours. Um, I will put this disclaimer in. I will drop a book in a hot second, I think, as people say. So, uh, if it's not speaking to me, I will move on. So I have a number of books oh my it does not mean that they are bad books.
Speaker 3:It just means they weren't getting to me and so I give you a little bit of time and if not, I'll come back. Uh, what is it? Uh, there's a popular book, anti. Have you read the heaven and earth grocery store? No, um. Um, there's a popular book, anton. Have you read the Heaven?
Speaker 2:and Earth Grocery Store.
Speaker 3:No, it's a popular book, adrian. Have you read it? No sir, I was not including you in that.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm totally not offended. It's a book that I saw that was pretty popular and everybody was talking about it and so I started it and I didn't end up going through it and I was like I can't get into this and so I came back to it and I came back to it. It was OK. So I'm just putting that thing in that. That's not all the books. So a popular book in the library was Sure I'll Join your Cult by Maria Bamford. I guess she's a comedian. I didn't know who she was, just saw the book was popular and so I was like, oh, let's jump on it because it talks about colts. And I quit it very quickly. Um, I think she's.
Speaker 3:I guess she's experienced like suicidal thoughts and she's a comedian, and so some of her jokes I felt were like really on, uh, on the edge. And when I was like if I'm feeling uncomfortable by myself in my headphones, then this is probably a book I'm walking away from. So uh, the other one was the country of blind. It was a decent book. It just wasn't grabbing me. But it's about a guy who's going blind because he has a degenerative disease and so he's talking about how he's walking through that transition and it started out good.
Speaker 3:I thought the book was decent. But then it sounds bad. But he just sounds terrible. That probably sounds the kind of person I am, but it just sounded like he was getting in the weeds too much of things that he hadn't experienced yet, and so then I couldn't identify with him. So I was like, ah, you know what, I'll get that book another time. And then, um, one of the spiritual ones was the wood between the worlds and it's a poetic book on the cross, and I thought that sounded good for, uh, going through Easter and all the things. So I was like, oh man, I'll get that. And like I got into it and I'm like I don't know, that was the one that should have been a sermon. But not only was it just a sermon, it felt like it was a sermon with poetry and it was like I don't know if I can jump on this bandwagon. So again, they may be all good books, and so some of you may be like that's my favorite book and if it was the Wood Between the Worlds.
Speaker 2:I have to, yeah, I disagree with you.
Speaker 3:Oh, you'd like the Wood Between the Worlds, I do. Oh see, I was trying. I was trying and I could not. So I'll tag it to come back to. I'll tag it to come back to, but I could not. But again, but it's like like well, I did it with uh, no, that's a different book, Nevermind. But yes, all right, so I'll, I'll give it another chance, just cause you said do you dislike poetry? I don't dislike poetry. I think it's just hard for things that keep breaking up. If you keep breaking up the sequence and I have to when I come back I'm like oh man, I got to get back in, got to get back in versus a flow. I think my personality likes to flow.
Speaker 2:Well, anton you have more commentary? Oh no, I just think it's wonderful. I don't think Aaron likes poetry. I think he probably also doesn't like musicals. Because, it feels like a musical, I would say in that kind of way, because it's like people are talking and they start breaking into song and you have to be prepared for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would agree with that.
Speaker 2:That's the nature of the way the story is presented, so you're either in for that or you are not.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I would say he had some great things that made me think about the cross in Gethsemane, like going up to the cross. Sometimes I was like, wow, like going up to the cross. Like sometimes I was like wow, that is so deep. But then he'd lose me and then I'd be like I gotta get back in, gotta get back in until then. Finally, I was like if I have to work this hard, I have to uh, go ahead and step out, but I need to come back, I need to give it a chance. It's just like your uh thing on the classics. It's making me think like I need. I've been trying to read like one classic at a time, uh with between all the rest of them. So then, like now you're like making me, challenge me to like I need to go back and revisit some classics well, I have a my way of seeing books.
Speaker 1:It's so, so different, but I can't like deny this inside of me of how I feel about books. I feel like there's a few people who are the true authors, right, like they're writing their everything is just kind of like man, they can crank out a book. I mean mean, it's just amazing, like that is truly their gift. And then there's some people who write a book because of a certain situation or whatever it is that takes place in their life and I feel like every person. The summary statement is this is that I feel like every person has like their one thing and I like to read a book by somebody who not necessarily has written 15, 20 books, but the person unless they're that writer guy, unless they're that writer gal, and they're just like they got the gift, they got the anointing, whatever, but I like to read that is their life in a book.
Speaker 1:Like the best example I can give is Aaron loves Carrie Schmidt, but like Stop Trying. By Carrierie schmidt, like that is, that's his thing. You know what I mean. That book was that man's life squeezed out on pages. So it's like you look at certain books that people write and it's like I like to find those books. Mark veerpop is that the guy's name, veer? Yeah, mark veerpop that.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's named, but I know you're talking about deep dark clouds, deep mercy yes, that know if that's his name, but I know what you're talking about. Dark Clouds, deep Mercy that book he can continue to write and I'm sure he can, but I'm saying that was the one. Those are the ones I look for. And so Jerry Bridges I mean his thing about Respecful Sins, I thought was great and stuff. But then I was like, okay, I'm going to keep going. And then, you know, trusting God, I did put it down. I'm not saying I don't want to trust God, it just wasn't like like the other one was his thing. You know what I mean. Like that was his areas, but the other one specific, you know, the other book this is this has nothing to do with it. I'm just going to name two books and then just move on.
Speaker 1:But it had a great title and I'm like, man, this is where we're going right here. I think you're wrong, but I'm listening. It was very popular during the red and blue time in 2020 and stuff Basically won the Republican, won the Democrat, but they still get along and it's like, okay, this is great. But I think I pretty much gave you what the book is about, almost like watching the trailer and it's like there's going to be so much more of a develop in this story and I guess I didn't see it and maybe it's there and I just didn't give it more of a chance, like I'm like Aaron, try to be gracious about it, but anyway, it's just sometimes where it's those kind of genres of books where the title is a little bit more exciting than the content, or it's not that person's thing that it is, and again, I might need to be corrected and tell me to come back to it. But those are the books put down.
Speaker 1:But let's do this as we still continue to go through this. What books have you read lately that have changed your mind or helped you with a different perspective? Now we're gonna start there, but don't give me the one that is a must read for everyone. That's the last question. Tell me one that has changed your mind or helped you see a different perspective. Anton, I'm curious. Is it the myth of Sisyphus?
Speaker 2:No, it only sealed my perspective.
Speaker 3:Did you what he says? It only sealed my perspective. No.
Speaker 2:I'm just kidding. Anyway, it won't go there. The End of Race Politics Arguments for a Colorblind America by Coleman Hughes. I don't know if either of you guys have read it, but it has changed my perspective on several, I would say, racial issues. I don't know if you know Coleman Hughes at all, but Coleman is a lot younger and I think his perspective kind of is painted because he's younger than a lot of authors of whatever. I think Coleman's like 26, maybe. Oh wow, I think that sometimes I think we argue for the past instead of for the future, and I think his argument is both interesting, insightful and fresh and that it's not just a recount of every other race book that you've read, and I think a lot of what he says does again, it's backed by the data and is, you know, insightful, interesting, interesting. What was the name of it?
Speaker 1:again, end of race politics arguments for a colorblind america wow, that sounds very interesting to change the perspective of culture and race discussions. Aaron, what about you?
Speaker 3:um, naturally, because I've been studying the um, the work thing for my workshop or whatever that's. That's one of the books. Work by Sussman has helped me see some things a little differently from the secular side and it honestly, um, I was reading Tim Carr's every good endeavor, um, which I think is a solid book on the gospel and work. But reading the secular version of it and why, with a person who's an atheist, hates God, secular version of it, and why, with a person who's an atheist hates God, um, believes about work I think that one changed my perspective from the side of Christians, like, oh man, we've adopted a lot of these things and we say we're believers but we think the same way as this unbeliever, um, but then I would say one that was random for me, um, that changed my and I was trying to find the author, but it's a pop, a pretty popular book.
Speaker 3:It's called yellow face. Um, it's about, um, well, I won't tell you what it's about, but it's about appropriation pretty much, uh, and it just made me really think because the whole book is pretty much about uh, well, I'm trying to see all right, right, I'm going to go and say this Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert If you're going to read Yellow Face, then here's a spoiler. Pause for the next couple of seconds. I don't recommend the book.
Speaker 1:Don't recommend the book.
Speaker 3:But I would say it's about a Asian girl who is a great author and a white lady who wants a white girl, who wants to be like her, and so the Asian lady dies, and so when she dies, the white lady, who is her friend, kind of find some of her manuscripts and starts publishing her book about these like Chinese history things, and so the whole book is about. The whole moral of the story is can white people write about things that they didn't experience or write through history about, like whether it be Asian-Americans, black Americans, and that's the whole thing of the book. And it just made me think. I don't agree with the premise of the book at all, but it did. It made me see a different perspective from other people to think like, oh man, you can't write about this, you can't talk about these subjects, and so for a minute it made me think like, oh man, like that would be tough to be a white writer outside of the story. But they're right, uh. And so I started looking at this and seeing other white authors. So American dirt would probably be one of my favorite.
Speaker 3:Like fiction books, um, but I didn't even know that there was a huge uh, fiction books, but I didn't even know that there was a huge, a huge whatever you call it skirmish, hullabaloo, whatever word I can't think of right now about it was a big thing about her being a white author that wrote a story about Mexican immigrants, and so that was the first one that opened my eyes to like wow, there's a whole lot of stuff just being an author and thinking through these stories and it's such a great story in American Dirt and I'm like man, this lady went through the mud because she wrote about this immigrant story and so I'm still developing my thoughts on it. But that was like one of the last books that like really made me like think through both sides and try to really like see something that hadn't hadn't naturally seen. Well, well, those are interesting observations. Like see something that hadn't naturally seen.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, those are interesting observations. I'd about say yellow face I didn't know where you're going with that specifically, but that is super interesting. Mine's pretty simple it's and again, it represents where I have been and pretty much, you know, the thoughts have been going through my mind of recent day. And my wife is working at a, at Genesis healthcare. It's like a place where people get mental health counseling and different things, and so it's really created this thought in my mind of you know, I know many times we fear it, we do not really understand, and so, therefore, mental health obviously has a lot of attention right now, and it really just made me think like, okay, what is going on? The tension between the spiritual, the physical and trying to figure out all these different things. So that's where my mind's been a lot of times.
Speaker 1:And so if I've ever read a book and this is rare for me, that I read an entire book in 24 hours, I mean I'm sure y'all do all the time, but I'm talking sit in a couch and I started reading and I did not stop until I had finished it. I mean I went to bed that night, but I came up the next morning and I read the entire book, the theology of biblical counseling, was it because it was just kind of like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It made me think like there's somebody who actually entered into that tension of where I was, where the Bible is sufficient for all man's needs and places. The argument as well, that to be understood is an understanding of the physical reality of what is happening inside of somebody's human anatomy, within our broken world. Like I said before, I just say like every single illustration I agree with.
Speaker 1:Before I go all that all out, I'm not there, I'm just saying, maybe because of the season I was in, it just was really just spoke to me that because I believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, like probably extra, because I believe in the sufficiency of scripture, like probably extra right, and, with that being said, it was a good balance between, like I said, and respective what's taking place physiologically and stuff. So, anyway, that was. I don't want to say it's like oh, that just changed my completely, but it really did give vernacular to something that I previously did not have much before. And then I guess, looking in the past, I wrote down Amusing Ourselves to Death by Postman from back in the day because I was a latecomer coming to it and reading it, but I was like it was really one that kind of made me think a lot more than I probably than other books, just of the past and stuff. But that'll be the only other one that I put down on my little list that I have here.
Speaker 1:All right, well, let's close up then, guys. Who wants to take this one first Outside the Bible? What book? This final question as we close up this podcast what book do you believe outside the Bible is a must read for everybody? What book is a must read for everyone? Aaron, anton, which one?
Speaker 2:Anton, go first. I'm just going to say this. I was going to give a disclaimer before anyone went to. There is no way I could answer this question in the way that it was raised.
Speaker 1:Absolutely impossible, Outside the Bible what book do you believe is a must-read?
Speaker 2:Because you're going to say book and that's a singular word. I'm saying there are too many kinds of books. I'm going to go with five or six.
Speaker 1:Narrow it down for us.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do it by category. I'm going to say that this could change on a daily basis. You ask me a different time of day. It might change. From a Christian book, I would say, and again, not a theology book, I would say the Cost of Discipleship.
Speaker 3:Oh, by Bonhoeffer.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like that book a lot. I think again from a. Christian perspective. I think it's a very good book that a lot more people should read. From like an essay style, I'm going to go James Baldwin, fire Next Time. Or Notes of a Nated Son. From like a fiction, let's say multiple kinds of fiction, but anyway I'll say Fahrenheit 451, ray Bradbury. If we're going with a play, I'm taking Hamlet. Oh, my goodness, I told you I couldn't answer this question. You asked the question.
Speaker 2:I'm going to bring it to the best of my ability. What about Macbeth? Come on, I'm not a big Macbeth person and if we're talking like I would say classical, I'm going to take the Iliad and Odyssey by Homer.
Speaker 1:Okay, Well, folks, if you do not feel cheated by Anton's list, that is quite the list you have there. Sir Aaron, do you want to go next?
Speaker 3:I will and I just went like knee jerk, like in my mind, like what books need to be? What book do I believe everybody needs to read and it's probably a personality type, so I'm going to go ahead and say that. But I was going to say Crucial Conversations, tools for Talking with Sixer High. To me that's still a game changing book about how to have conversations. Because for me, even as I talk to people now I'm like people think like oh, if I give feedback or if I tell somebody something and have a conversation, I have to be rude or I have to be mean or I have to be something and it's like no, you can actually have a hard conversation and it come across really well, uh, and so crucial conversations I've.
Speaker 3:I think I've read through it twice and I've referenced it quite a bit, but it's just for me it's one of those. If I had to go for a knee-jerk, I have lots of books like Anton's Because then I was thinking through, if it's a Christian book, it's all by Paul Tripp why we Should Stand in the Law of God.
Speaker 1:And it's like but if we're just going for the knee-jerk outside of the Bible, I think everybody needs a really crucial conversation. Okay, all right. Well, the crucial conversation is a great pick, because I just don't think that we know as a society how to even talk to each other and anyway, that's a podcast episode in itself as far as you're talking about that. And then the cost of discipleship I've heard the quotes from Bonhoeffer's book and stuff, but that also seems to be man, one of those ones that are kind of like what? Anton might not like this analogy, but like David Platt and Radical, kind of like when. Those kind of like yeah, this is where we need to be, we're not there type situation and just understand if you're going to follow Christ and what it costs. So I have one that I want to be identified with. To say is one of my favorite, but I'll have to be honest and say the one, and I'm just going to be. I will be able to hear the eye roll from through over the mic as soon as I say the name of the book from Anton. But Anton, I'm going to face your judgment and I'm ready, but the one that I'm, I don't mind going ahead and saying, hey, look outside of, I will to read Atomic Habits. I just feel um, james clear's book and I didn't put it under the change, my perspective, but it's one of those catalyst books of man. Let's just go ahead and put this to work like if you want to do this. But again, this speaks to my personality. It's like atomic habits was.
Speaker 1:I walked away from the book and was like all right, I am going to figure out how to then double my habits, like to build upon the habits I have. I already have a normal routine of doing this. I'm going to add one more thing to the routine and then be able to then build that habit in 28, like atomic habits, by clear. It's just. It's just. I don't say you got to read it, but it's just, it's just. The principles there are just amazing. For me, at least it spoke to me. But the book that by practical application, by just look at my life, when my daughter looked at me and said, dad, I would read a book for some extra credit or something like that around the house, for some extra chores, can you give me a book? I handed her the Road Back to you by Ian Crum.
Speaker 2:So that is the one.
Speaker 1:That is the one I mean haters gonna hate, haters gonna hate. But I don't know, we are enneagrammy family, as far as you know, talking the numbers and stuff. So, uh, yeah, so I would have to go with that one and the one that was super close but I did not make the list because it felt bad, the one so I had atomic habits. Then I had to go back to you. But the last one was the trump bible.
Speaker 3:That was the one that was like, oh, my goodness I I asked aaron the other day because I was like I know some people who are very much, very strong trump supporters not knocking Trump supporters. But I was like how do they listen to our podcast? Oh man, every time I read these books we had to get that in there somewhere.
Speaker 3:This episode was sponsored by. We're going to keep a link in the show notes. But I do like every time I see the Trump Bible I feel bad, and so this is not I am a King James preferred guy. So I, because it is what I grew up on, this is what I know, and so I do use a king james and I'm probably not ashamed I'd say most likely not ashamed to say that, but I will say trump didn't know who was going for when he got a king james bible with large print, with a leather cover. I'm like my man was targeting a certain audience, that's all I'm saying I'm like you know he didn't come out with an ESV.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:My man was like I need a. What are we looking at, mr Trump? No, I don't want an ESV. None of that news. Give me an old King James, a big one, a big one, and I put the Constitution in the back. Large print.
Speaker 1:Large print make sure you get that chorus of Lee Greenwood, because they might not be singing anything else, but they'll sing that one. Oh, we gotta stop this is YouTube this ain't even me.
Speaker 3:I'm just looking at. When you watch those YouTube videos of like how Yeti came up with their products or how Stanley started making mugs, and like they make fun of the stanley for, uh, the stanley company's like oh, what are we gonna do? We're gonna make them in color and we're gonna charge them 50 a mug or whatever, and it's like that's all I picture in the trump bible. Like someone needs to do that youtube video like why did donald trump use the 50 bible, the sneakers, all of it? I just need somebody on YouTube. If there's somebody, please email us the link. If there's a good one out there, please email us the link. I want to see it.
Speaker 2:Anyway, well, I would just like to make a disclaimer. Anton did not improve any of these messages. I'm not going to sing another tune. Anton, Aaron, Trump and Candace hate.
Speaker 3:I don't know why it keeps coming back. My man can sell merch. That's all I'm saying. He can sell merch. I'm over here trying to figure out how to sell my photography. Donald Trump's like nah, give me a King James Bible, I'm making a lot of money.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to stop it Aaron just won't stop. I'm trying to find a segue. Anyway, sorry to stop it, aaron, aaron just won't stop. I'm trying to find a segue anyway. Uh, sorry, I'm the one who started it, so I'll take responsibility. That was not on my list. If you did have a question, it was not on my list. Um, I do believe in this, I do believe in the scriptures and the inerrancy of scriptures and stuff, and I just believe that.
Speaker 3:Just yeah well, I'm not doing that. Let me stop, just stop. I was asking where you're going.
Speaker 1:Let's just stop. All right, we did our reading check. You haven't seen the love of reading from scale two to ten, and we see what we're reading lately. All right, we books, we stopped reading, started reading. We've also talked about things that have changed our perspective, changed our minds. Then we talked about one of the biggest influential books the must read outside the bible for everybody else. And so, after we now have digressed this last part of this episode, all right, all hearts and minds clear, gentlemen yes, they are clear, probably more so than they should have been a long time ago.
Speaker 1:Like that, guys, I'm about to say obviously aaron had some's what I think about when I'm out taking photos Apparently.
Speaker 3:So how can he do that? Anyway, here we go.
Speaker 1:If you have questions or comments or feedback, especially for Aaron, you go ahead and send that to avertonforthetimes at gmailcom. We thank you for you joining us and we look forward to you joining us next time.