A Burden For The Times
A Burden For The Times
Confronting the Heart of Racism: Interview with Adrian Burden
This podcast episode interviews the host...Adrian Burden. This episode is borrowed with permission from Josh Teis and the Idea Day Network Podcast. This podcast dates back to 2020 and features Adrian giving insight to church leaders tackling racism and its blindspots.
Listen as we categorize common responses to racially charged events—ranging from the "facts guy" who relies solely on data, to the "silent guy" who avoids the topic altogether, and the "gospel guy" who believes preaching alone will solve the issue. By highlighting these often incomplete approaches, we emphasize the need for a more comprehensive and empathetic response. Adrian and our hosts Drew and Josh explore the importance of cultural sensitivity, offering practical advice on how pastors and church members can more meaningfully connect with racially diverse congregations.
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Hey and welcome to another episode of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Today we have an interview, but this is going to seem a little bit different. What happened is I'm going to replay a podcast episode that I had the privilege to be part of years ago In fact, some of you might even know the name, joshua Tice, over at Southern Hills Church and so in 2020, in the midst of so much going on racially that we decided to have a conversation about it and how churches should react during those times and I think, applicable to these times as well. So keep in mind, the context of the conversation that Josh and I had was really centered around the heat of so many things George Floyd, ahmaud Arbery and recently.
Speaker 1:On the podcast, we have been covering a lot of topics that have been cultural in nature, and so this one really specifically deals with the race aspect.
Speaker 1:Obviously, having a background in ministry, I am personally very passionate about how these issues relate to the gospel and how the church can be better equipped to be able to make better decisions going into the future, and so you're going to hear the host, which is Drew, and then also Josh, as they continue to talk through these different things through this podcast. So it's a little bit different to be interviewed on the podcast that I am on, but it was really from this conversation that sparked me and my brothers to then be able to then have more conversations to say let's consider doing something like this ourselves, because we do believe that there is more that needs to be unpacked on these cultural issues. So, with no further ado, then, I'm going to go ahead and play that podcast episode. The very young and energetic Adrian you will hear in just a moment and hopefully this will be of help and as the goes from the Idea Day Talks is the name of Josh's podcast, and so just want to go ahead and give that a listen.
Speaker 2:Today we are joined by a very special guest, who we'll introduce in just a minute. We're recording this episode during a very emotional time in the United States and the world. A lot has happened right now in the last, even seven days, so let's go into a little bit some of the events that's transpired and why we're addressing this topic right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, if you've been paying attention to the news at all, obviously you're not only seeing the protests around the country, but how some of the protests are turning into riots and looting. This all brought on by the horrible death, murder murder of George Floyd and our society, for the first time in a long while, is taking a serious look at the issue of racial relations. And some might say come on, for the first time seriously looking at it. Hey, look, look, in my short memory. I've seen riots before, I've seen protests before, but I've never been in a time in my life, drew, where you're seeing it in every major city in the United States.
Speaker 3:This is something different. This is something different and I say good, not good for rioting, not good for looting, but good that we're having this conversation. It's something that we brought up just a few episodes ago when we talked with Kenny Baldwin about racism within the local church. But really, we wanna talk about this big idea today of addressing racism in a biblical and sensitive way as a pastor, within the local church and within your circle of friends.
Speaker 2:And the person joining us to discuss that specific topic is Adrian Burden. He's an evangelist with Burden Ministries. Adrian, tell us a little about yourself for those who don't know you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, man. Hey, first off, let me say it's my honor to be able to be with you on the podcast. Hey, it's good to be on the podcast. I'm a faithful listener of you guys and so I appreciate that. And as far as who I am, I'm an international evangelist, if you want that little buzzword.
Speaker 1:Basically, I have the opportunity to preach, not here in the United States, but all over the world, the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's my 24-7 job, and this past year, let's see, I was in I think it was 55 different pulpits all across the country and even the world. We spend about three months of our calendar year over in other countries as well, and so we keep moving. And so that's the context of. I have a wife, my two daughters, jasmine and Janae, and I'm thankful that, even though we do travel extensively, I am able to have my family with me. I am from North Carolina and I have the opportunity to travel out from there. And so, yeah, that's the testimony in a nutshell, and thank God for the Lord, for the salvation that he's given to me, and I get to share that with others every day.
Speaker 3:Okay Now, normally I'm the one with the most energy on this podcast, but clearly Adrian's my octane.
Speaker 1:I'm just loud man, I'm just loud.
Speaker 3:No man, I love it and you're welcome to be, so. It helps the podcast tremendously. Well, we've been friends for many years, adrian. My sister Charity and you went to college at the same time, at the same place, and then we got to know each other early on in our ministry careers. As I was pastoring here in Las Vegas, you came out with an evangelistic team Dave Young Evangelistic Association working with Dave Young during that time, and then you were here evangelizing in Las Vegas preaching the gospel, and joined our church for a little bit of that time to preach the gospel here. It's been amazing. And then to watch your ministry not just flourish in the United States but, as you said, internationally, it's very, very cool. So we really are honored to have you part of the podcast. We're pretty excited about this. So thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:So, in your words, adrian, just explain to us why you, why this topic, why right now?
Speaker 1:You know well the right now. I think that we can all acknowledge what's going on in our world today obviously is troubling, is causing panic attacks, anxiety attacks to so many just because of just what the news and the portrayal that it is. You know, when you asked me to come on the podcast, I can't say that I was excited, I was thrilled and I jumped on the opportunity, but I can't say I was shocked because, giving my personal context of, I think I know why you asked me to be part of it and I am happy to live my perspective. You know, growing up in a for the most part a white evangelical background and in churches I would primarily preach in and being a black guy in that context, you know we understand that our world struggles with racism and in fact, even just as you travel around and walk around, me and my family were in the airport this was just only months ago and a guy called me the N-word to me and my family. He had other things to say too as well. I mean, we knew that kind of stuff happened in our world. But I really think the reason why you asked me is because I can even see it unfortunately becoming more of a problem within the church and yet the church many times not addressing it many times.
Speaker 1:And so you know, having a unique perspective of, you know, being an evangelist and traveling to churches and getting invites by pastors and they call me and say they found out that I was black and they cancel me. Or maybe a pastor telling me that I showed up at his church and he didn't know I was a black gentleman coming to preach, and him tell me, pretty much hit the road, or all those contexts kind of gave me an impression that man, this is still not as far in the rear view mirror as we have maybe said. And so, therefore, I think the unique perspective and also I'm a firm, I believe the Bible and I love the Bible, and so I want to be balanced in how I approach even things I'm very passionate, emotional, about I know the Bible takes precedent over all that passion, but I do believe there is a middle ground for us to understand, and so I think that's why now, why even I have the opportunity, I'm thankful for the platform to be able to talk to you guys about it.
Speaker 3:You know, it's interesting because we live in a world where, I think, we're all convinced that racism and bias in our nation is there. I mean, we all understand that and we're all convinced at this point that it's wrong, right? I mean, it's really hard to find somebody who says I think racism is the right decision, I think it's absolutely right. Yet, even though we may all universally condemn racism, racism is alive and well in our society and this is one of the reasons why we want to address this issue, to ask the question okay, does racism abide in my own heart? And even more so because the vast majority of the people who listen to this podcast are church leaders and pastors Does racism abide in our church, and how exactly do we address those issues? I mean recently, with the death of excuse me, the murder of George Floyd. We all process things differently, right, adrian? How did you, as a black man, process the murder of George Floyd?
Speaker 1:You know, I believe universally we can all say we were all troubled. You have the group that says I watched the video. You have the group that I didn't watch the video. I'm of the group that I watched the video. I was driving, I was picking my mom up from an appointment and she was on her phone and soon thereafter she was just playing on her phone and I remember just driving and I kept looking down. I'm like that video is still going, that video is still going, that video is still going. And I just remember, just, you know, in my you can tell, I get energized and passionate about stuff and look at my mom and I'm like mom, this is not okay, like, like what is taking place? I mean, at what point will people begin to understand that maybe we're not just saying just things, just to be saying them?
Speaker 1:So for me it was not just a tragedy, because that was one aspect of it, but it was also the response to the tragedy of those who I count to be friends in the ministry, because obviously the media automatically, you know, portrayed it as racial and so so many people jumped on that instead of jumping on the fact of this was a tragedy. You know like? For me, what does it change if you prove the man had some KKK ties or some type of racial profile? Who cares? When you're talking about the fact that you just watched a man die on a video I mean, we've seen movies but I watched a man just die and so obviously, as a black man, here's how it for me is.
Speaker 1:In light of Ahmaud Arbery, in light of a news story of a woman making a bogus 911 call, in light of all of those things drawn all together, it's almost just kind of like Lord, can we catch a break, you know, to some degree. So you know to think biblically and it's that sin and the degradation of man, and we see the results that are there. But as a black man, you do see to yourself like I fit that profile, no matter what can be proved and what the motive are. I'm setting those arguments to the side because that's not the discussion. I just believe that many a black America can pretty much just put their head where that man's head was and understand that we still have much work to do. So that's really how I processed it and saw it in just that quick, brief moment of time when I first saw the video of time.
Speaker 3:When I first saw the video, I mean it's nearly. How difficult would it be for you to process this instance divorced from what we saw with that video, with Mrs Cooper in the middle of Central Park and the clear racism that was exhibited there, and then with Ahmaud Arbery just two weeks prior? How difficult would it be to divorce those concepts and then look at this independently of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously Christ can give us the victory and the power to do all things, but if you're asking an unsaved community, a black community, to divorce those two ideas, you're asking for an impossibility. You really are. I mean, let's just pretend that, oh, let's just pretend that however long there's been 400 slave, let's just forget that. You know what I'm saying and let's just move on. It's really hard because I will just throw this out there that many times in the black community is seen as a double standard. That will say 9-11, hashtag baby, never forget, never forget, hashtag, never forget. And then it's like you come to issue of slavery, it's like why can't they just get over it?
Speaker 1:Why can't they just forget the past, Like, why can't you just move on? And it's like we don't want to sit here and rehash hurt, rehash hurt, rehash hurt just to make somebody angry. But rehashing these different things, what it does, it helps us learn, it helps us understand so that we don't repeat the mistakes. And so I think we do ourselves a terrible disservice when we just say let's just forget the past and divorce ourselves from all the things that have happened in the past in light of the current circumstances, because I do believe they do influence them to some degree.
Speaker 3:That is so well said.
Speaker 2:You know I want to give our listeners as well as you, adrian, just a little bit of context. One of the things I love about Las Vegas. You know it's a very multi-ethnic community. If you take our choir, for example, like you will see red and yellow, black and white all in our choir. Like, we have multiple different ethnics groups represented in our church and church leaders have different views on racism and racism activity. Even after the last podcast we posted about Kenny Baldwin, I have people call me asking you know, is there anything you guys could have talked about, potentially of the black community helping the white community bridge that gap more? And I think for our like, what views have you seen our church leaders specifically about these? Things have been happening right now as well as with your own experience.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I appreciate the question, I appreciate what you know, people following up and asking those questions, those are great, great questions. Great questions always get great answers and so, anyway, but as far as how do I see church leaders I'm going to kind of list it out between three kind of three or four kind of guys that I have noticed and how they kind of take in, what the events are. I don't want to be negative.
Speaker 2:Obviously, you're going to see that one. Is that guy on your list? You have one for like that guy? We'll see.
Speaker 1:We'll see. All right, well, not quite, but if I, if I, that's a good one, because I might need to add a fifth one. But when I look at this, I see there's different individuals and how they process this entire event. The first one, I see I call them the facts guy. The facts, you know, typically, when a story comes out and immediately they say maybe this was driven by racism, or immediately they say by this, they usually jump to the facts, you know. All right, let's prove that this has happened, let's prove that this is racial and let's prove that these things are happening. And let me show you stats now. Let me show you stats on black, on black crime. And let me show you some stats on aborted babies in the black community. Let me show you some stats.
Speaker 1:Why are we getting all worked up over here? And understand that I am, I understand where they're coming from, the numbers do matter and et cetera, et cetera. But my caution for the person that responds that way. I was on the phone with a person the other day and he was calling me and he had a lot of statistics to share and I stopped him and I said sir, listen, it sounds like you're a little bit more sympathetic to the stats than you are to the people when you get to the point where you can ignore the pain of somebody over here and be so focused on just the numbers of what's happening. Fine, there's a time, there's a place, there's a platform for us to speak to these things. But I would just say to the facts guy that may be posting right now all the different crime and different things and how this happens all the time and people, this might not be the time and it's not going to help your inroad into the black community, especially when you're just all about the facts.
Speaker 1:I would also say there's the silent guy. Now let me be careful because, listen, you might remember when I got my first smartphone and stuff and Facebook was brand new and all this stuff and you would get these little things. Y'all probably remember these little things like share if you love Jesus. If you don't share it, then that means you don't love Jesus. This social compulsion to share this this is not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying this social compulsion of you must say something to this effect and if you say absolutely nothing, you're silenced.
Speaker 1:Listen, silence to me is defined as this is that when you are in a position to be able to make a difference in another human being's life. You're standing at a grocery store and someone, you see it take place and you are silent concerning these things and you do not stand up. I do believe that's a silence that is killing us. I be the church as a whole being silent about the issue. That is a silence I'm referring to.
Speaker 1:So when I say silence, I mean there's a silent guy, and here's who I'm referring to specifically is the gentleman, is the lady who has an opinion about everything. You know, nancy Pelosi, donald Trump changed their color socks and they got to let everybody know their opinion on it and they and it seems like they have this consistent, just just dialogue that takes place and then something soon as racial comes up cricket, cricket, cricket. Okay, bro, you know it's like there's a disconnect here. You have opinion about everything, but don't touch these issues and the sensitivity there. So I call the facts guy the silent guy, and if I'm talking too much, just don't tell me something that Josh would let me know.
Speaker 1:But also I call this the gospel guy, and here's what I mean by this. Gently, let me say this Don't jump in the middle and take what I'm saying out of context. Okay, what I'm saying about the gospel guy is look, he would say something simply like this even though this is a true statement, I am just going to add an addendum to it. Okay, he says well, you know, we just need a priest of gospel, right, and move on, like these issues. Let's just preach the gospel. Let's just preach the gospel, move on, move on.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. The gospel power is there and listen, my only thing I say to that is there are groups of people that still will be harder to reach with the gospel, not because the gospel lacks any power, but because there are some obstacles in some communities way. There are obstacles in the black communities way. If you don't think it's true, then go to the Middle East and try to witness to somebody and tell them about Jesus Christ. There's obstacles that you have to get through to be able to speak to these individuals, and what I see people doing with obstacles is many times they'll ignore the obstacle, like if the you remember the story in the Bible, obviously, about the four men that took the man to Jesus.
Speaker 1:You know you can't ignore the obstacle. They knew Jesus was a healer. They knew that he would be the one to fix their issue and ultimately, this man would be saved. But they couldn't ignore the fact that there's people all around Jesus. What are we going to do? We got to have some type of way to get to them. You can't ignore the obstacles in the black community. You can't put your head in the sand and say that there hasn't been years and years of pain that have to be addressed.
Speaker 1:Now, number two you can't project the obstacle. You can't just say, well, it's their fault, well, you know what? Hey, dude, we tried to get you to Jesus, bro. Look at this man, look at all these people. It's society. Look, if society wasn't thronging Jesus, if all the circumstances weren't the way they were, then we could get you to Jesus. No, they figured it out, they got creative and they listened to their obstacles. And when they listened to their obstacles, they said we have got to find a way. And so they go to the roof, they rip up the roof, drop the man of Jesus.
Speaker 1:What I'm saying is to the gospel guy my solution look, I understand the gospel is the answer, but don't do so as pretty much just parachuting, bailing out of not being willing to listen to the obstacles that are around you. So I see some different obstacle between those couple of guys. You can comment on those guys. I have another guy. You, those couple of guys, you can comment on those guys. I have another guy. You comment on those guys. Maybe it's unclear, but I want to make sure it's clear that I'm not making fun. I'm just saying these are my observations as I have lived on social media unfortunately a little while for these past couple of weeks.
Speaker 3:No, I totally agree. Here's the problem, adrian. I'm sitting here as a white man, grew up in a white church, went to a predominantly white college and married a white girl, and I eat mayonnaise on my sandwiches. So I am about as white as you can possibly be. But with all of those things being said, I know what it is to live the life of the facts guy. I've been in down the road, like I've been the guy that went. Wait a second, what about? Fact, fact, fact, stat, stat, stat.
Speaker 3:I've been the silent guy. Hey, I speak on all sorts of issues, but if I speak on this, you know, maybe I get myself into trouble. Um, and I've been the gospel guy. Um, oh, we just need to focus on Jesus and focus on the gospel. So I've, I've lived every single one of these scenarios. I'm coming to the realization. This is absolutely I get it. I understand that the only way I'm going to reach the black community is to begin to eliminate the obstacle of racism. How, how can I then, as a pastor, begin to address these issues? How, in our church and thank God, our church has grown multi-ethnic and multi-racial and I'm thankful for that. But even more so, how in the world. Can I, as a pastor, begin to address these issues?
Speaker 1:You know that's addressing them, I mean because I believe, obviously, the Word of God has the answer to everything. And so, if you're, I appreciate first sorry you threw me off just a bit because of the fact of your what you just said a moment ago I mean to to simply say that you have been in each of those situations. That takes humility, um, that takes, you know, that's putting your big boy pants on and just saying so. I mean I'm, I am taken back by that and I and I appreciate the transparency. You see, to me, you exemplify who I want to just highlight, and that's, to me, the listening guy, where I mean, instead of formulating every type of reason why you're okay, why you're doing what you're doing and why you're doing it, you're listening to what is happening. You're listening to what is happening. Your every man is your teacher. You're willing to hear, you know, things that might be uncomfortable and kind of set you off to some degree, and so, man, I respect the humility to be able to say it, to listen and hear what others are saying to you.
Speaker 1:You know, as a pastor, though, addressing these situations is, you know, tough, but I believe you can address all of these topics without using polarizing language, without using, you know, just things that are so kind of. You know there's a time and a place where you might need to get attention and just say, bam, we need a church, we need to work on racism, but you can still in so many ways, address each of these areas. I mean, you think of it, you know. Racism simply, you know in my mind, is you're just simply allowing outside influences to treat someone differently who bears the image of God. So when you think of it just kind of in simple terms and simple minds not white, not- black not green, not red, not fat, not skinny, it's.
Speaker 1:You treat any human being that's in the image of God differently just because of the way they are, the way they look. You see, the root of it is pride. So preach on pride. You know, when we have a revival in this area? When I look at Luke 15, 25 through 31, I consider, to my opinion, the most arrogant person in the Bible to be well outside the devil. Okay, to be the most arrogant person in the Bible is to be the prodigal son's brother, because he is so sly about how he puts his pride on. That is hard to see and I think when we address it in our church, we understand that, wow, we do kind of struggle with somebody else coming and they are kind of brought back into the fold, so to speak, and we necessarily haven't accepted them back into the fold. You know, look in John 4, how did Jesus deal with culture? How do you love a stranger? Talk to them about bias. I've never said the word racism in all these things. Jesus came for the hurting.
Speaker 1:In Matthew, chapter number nine, you recently did Josh Proverbs and you went through every day in Proverbs, and when you did, I mean you go to Proverbs 18,. You see, an offended brother. It's harder to be one than a strong city. Talk about an offended brother. Yes, it could be the black community, but there's several communities that have been offended. You could go the route of James 2, and then you understand that faith without works is dead. Talk is cheap. It's time to stop talking and let's see it inside of our action. Loving your brother is not optional. According to 1 John Judging our brother.
Speaker 1:In Matthew, chapter number 7, hypocritically and ultra-critically, and then in 2 Kings 7, the passage if I preach on this matter without ever saying the word prejudice, racism, black or white when I come to this in 2 Kings, chapter number seven, is, I think of, in the black community. For me it's a story of the four lepers that go and they get the food and the cereals and stuff and it's how can I enjoy the blessings and know that my brothers are in pain? Exodus Moses had it all baby and after having everything he had, he went out there and saw one guy mistreating his bro and he killed him. Why? Because you have a connection. Even though they were probably doing wrong and wicked things, you have a connection to those people. So what I'm saying is you can address this a hundred ways without necessarily saying the word prejudice race and it needs to start inside of the pulpit. I firmly, firmly believe.
Speaker 3:So it's all about just preaching. You can preach through the Bible. You can get to the passages as you're preaching through and say, hey, look, it's so very clear that here we see an aspect to a connecting point. I just had a buddy talk on social media about this. He's very, very serious about preaching the next passage, next verse, next chapter, all the way through. And he said I really wanted to address what was going on in the world today, but I also felt very compelled to preach the next passage, the next verse, the next chapter. And as he did, he said you know, it's amazing to me how the Holy Spirit just opened up the passage and I think it was James, chapter three, something like that and how it directly related to the words that we speak in relation to what's going on in the world today with racial reconciliation. So I think you're right. So it begins with preaching the word of God to the people and addressing it, to bridging it to the problems of our day.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 3:I love it, can I?
Speaker 1:make an addendum real quick to that, because I do believe the church leads in this area, then I do believe sometimes the church has been kind of behind the culture, like you know some things that weren't popular before, whatever it was, the church kind of warms up to it, like what I'm saying is the issue of addressing of racism should be like you should look and see a picturesque line and you ought to see the one that's at the front with the banner, and going forward would be the people that are children of God. You know, I know there's other people that have different means and methods to which they advance, but people who truly believe in the gospel and being for everybody and every creature, I believe would see this as this is an enemy. This is an enemy of the very truth that I preach every Sunday, and they would attack it with an attack like no other. So, anyway, just an addendum to your thought there.
Speaker 3:So one of the things that I've noticed and I know you know this as well we have good hearts right, especially preachers. I would hope that they have good hearts. They've dedicated their lives to preaching the gospel. And again, I keep for those who are members of our church and are listening to this. I keep addressing preachers and pastors and evangelists, because the primary audience of this podcast is just that we make mistakes.
Speaker 3:For an example, the first year of our church, I'm up preaching and as I'm preaching, I've noticed a lot of Asian people beginning to come to our church and I mentioned meeting an Oriental man and, as I said, one day I met this Oriental man who said to me such and such, I had this dear, sweet woman who's still a member of our church 15 years later. God bless her for her grace and mercy. I have no idea why she puts up with us. She came forward to me after the service and she probably about 60 years old at the time and said pastor, can I speak with you? Yes, she said Oriental is a flavor, not a person we prefer to be referred to as Asian and I never forgot it changed my life.
Speaker 3:It really did like literally helped me quite a bit because our church at this point is nearly 30% Asian. But it's something I didn't know. I didn't mean to be offensive and, adrian, this has happened to me many, many times, especially in race relations. Preachers tend to be offensive, even unintentionally. Do you have suggestions about how we can be more sensitive?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's I'm going to speak from the context of the white community, the black community or whoever to the black community, because obviously that is my context right now. And usually some people you interviewed Kenny Baldwin and me and him were talking a while back about how we were joking around like how have you been introduced, adrian? When people ask you to come to their church and it's like some of the most bizarre things that are said and it's like they're trying to be sensitive but it's just kind of like you just put your head down and it's like just sit down, I want to preach. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Like this is not working what you're trying to say and many times they're being offensive what they're saying. And so I think, number one, if I just kind of give suggestion, if you don't understand it, don't speak on it. You know what I'm saying. Like my brother did an article a little while back and we should probably attach this. It's a good one. He wrote it a while back but he wrote 10 things white pastors should know when they are introduced to black people, and he does it tongue in cheek.
Speaker 1:Have you read that, andrew, I was like wow, I was reading through it I was like, wow, yeah, you know, it's like. Sometimes it's like people come up and feel like, you know, they got to put their the thing they learned on the, on the blackest show or whatever show they got to put into practice. When they see me, you know, you know, got to do the exploding fist bump and dab me up. Baby, use some bonnets, you know, let me know that they got black friends and remind me of all the. You know, just kind of like it's really okay, you know, and he goes through and names some and they're tongue-in-cheek and I think that sometimes that you know, ignorance is part of it. You know, especially because whew, this is sorry, I guess I'll only say one, since I did say that many times when you get introduced and stuff.
Speaker 3:But like when you get introduced and says well, I'm so thankful to have a good black brother in here here. This guy ain't like most black people.
Speaker 1:Oh my word, what an insult. Somebody really said that. What do you mean? What are you?
Speaker 2:trying to say could you imagine like if, as a white preacher, you know you're introduced and here comes josh chice he's caucasian white, he is wearing boat shoes today, which is prolific of his race, and like, that's just.
Speaker 3:You know, we don't do that he likes mayonnaise on sandwiches and he's not like most white people. That you know, right? Yeah, I mean incredibly insulting.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it finds its way, kind of in its way and it's like, really, if you thought to it, just like the logic you just used, then it would be able to say, ok, things you shouldn't say. But anyway, the question simply was you know how to be more sensitive for me, you, how to be more sensitive For me? You answered it, josh, which is in a great way, that lady, that Asian lady that came to you and let you know after the service is it is imperative that if you are in a community that's culturally different than what you grew up with or you are used to, then here you must have somebody who can speak into your life, that can tell you things that are potentially even hurtful, that you say or even impressions that you give. You know, I try to be an optimist. Even during this entire, this entire ordeal, I have had a pastor friend who, who he posted stuff, and when he posted stuff I knew his heart, I knew him, and so I didn't go into him social media, I texted him and I just said hey, bro, hey, look man, I'm just letting you know. I know this is not you, but I'm just saying, as far as the black community dude, that's really offensive. For this reason, this reason, this reason, this reason, now he didn't listen to him. That's his business. But I'm just saying you have to have somebody who can speak into you and say, hey, look, you ought not say that phrase that you kind of think is so funny, that one joke that you always share. You might not want to say those things.
Speaker 1:And then if you don't have somebody who is in that context, who can speak to you in that kind of format, then you must then swallow the hard pill. Then you might not have a full grasp on how another person, another culture, feels, another person, another culture feels, therefore keeping your mouth shut about certain areas, and you don't walk away and say, well, I know how it feels because I have this one story when I was a kid, this happened. No, no, no, no. This is a different culture, different context.
Speaker 1:I don't know what it's like to have a family member right now in my life, to be in the bouts with cancer. I don't know what it's like to have a special needs child. I don't know what I know what it's like to, you know, for us to struggle with infertility. So when I speak to somebody I have that kind of insight in my mind when I speak to somebody else, but what I'm saying is you go, you don't understand a different context of somebody and don't assume that you know, and having somebody that can speak into your life in that area is is is so valuable because some people they they don't want to be wrong. You know that maybe, even though they have good intentions, they're still saying things that are hurtful and sometimes even in ignorance.
Speaker 3:That concept of having people that can speak in your life I have to share. Just this last week, we're in the midst of, obviously, a lot of racial tension and within our church, because it's multi-ethnic we're experiencing a lot of it within our local congregation, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It leads to good conversations. I posted something on social media Facebook I think it was that I thought was actually very supportive of the black community, and the reason I thought it was very supportive of the black community is because I don't know what I'm talking about and I had this dear, sweet, wonderful woman in our church. She's an attorney, she's extremely involved in our church, serves in our church African American woman. She contacted me by messenger and said hey, pastor, I just want you to know what you posted. I think I know what you were trying to do, but it's extremely offensive and immediately I'll tell you what I felt, adrian. I felt honestly, I'll tell you. I felt aggressive, I felt a little embarrassed and angry all at the same time. I thought wait, who are you? I'm your pastor. These are all the emotions I'm feeling. At the same time, I was trying wait, who are you? I'm your pastor. These are all the emotions I'm feeling.
Speaker 3:At the same time I was trying to be, I was trying to do the right thing and then the Holy Spirit said calm down and call the woman. She's your friend. So I FaceTimed because I don't like I like to see people's faces. I FaceTimed her and I said, hey, I just got your message. And immediately, as soon as I saw her face, I calmed down. And as soon as she saw my face, you could tell she calmed down. It was powerful.
Speaker 3:And I said to her I said, hey, I don't know what I did, but I obviously did something. Can you help me, because you know my heart and I don't want to do the wrong thing here? And she's like, yeah, pastor, look here, here's what this means and here's what it could have meant and here's how it could be interpreted by some. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. And I said, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:And I I've reverted back to that moment, that, dear Asian lady 15, make sure. And I said, if you call me and tell me, like in a sermon, if I said something or if I post something, I said because you understand a worldview that I don't, and I minister to a lot of people and I really need your help. Can you be like one of my people in the corner as I go out and fight in the ring? Can you? When I come back from, can you say, hey, don't, you don't mean that. Text me immediately, call me. You don't want to say that and I'll change. I trust you enough to kind of submit myself in that way.
Speaker 3:And man, she's like yeah, I would love that pastor and this, I think it's going to be extremely helpful.
Speaker 1:Dude, if we just cut that part of the podcast out and just put that just in a little blurb all by itself and just let that be echoed through, man, that would be incredible. I think here and I'm going to go off record, josh, and say this that look, man. I don't believe that just because you're in Las Vegas doesn't mean that automatically translates to a multi-ethnic church. I believe that it could just look just like you and as far as being a white guy in America, it could look like you. I believe a spirit like that is probably the greatest aid in you having a multi-ethnic church.
Speaker 1:Because of the fact that you realize you do not have the answers you said angry, embarrassed, all that. All those things take place because you don't want anybody to take your good and speak evil of it. Who wants that and so, but to be willing to be humble enough to be able to do that. If you were here inside this room and this wasn't through FaceTime, I hug you. And what you said about FaceTime and seeing a person's face, you are right, seeing an individual, and it's so easy to hit somebody and the gut, so to speak, gut check them through a text message, but it's a whole lot harder to gut check them when you're looking them dead in the eye, and I believe that's when the conversation happens. Like I know you, I see all the good things, all the good memories, all the things that I know. You're not trying to hurt me, you're not trying to put me down, and it's just, man, that was powerful. Sorry, I had to put an exclamation point behind what you just said there, because that was good. That was good man.
Speaker 2:You know, adrian, you mentioned earlier. You know, especially when addressing these things from the pulpit as a pastor or a preacher, you know racism is kind of the fruit of pride and not loving and being kind, all fruits of the spirit. So, backing up, before we, you know, as leaders, can get in front of a platform to address people in an audience, whether it be 20 people or 2000 people, how do we personally, as an individual, turn the tide in racism in our nation?
Speaker 1:That's great, and usually that is the question what can we do? What can I as an individual do? Because we don't want to just diagnose a problem and don't lead there to be any help. I'm going to give you the answer in the form of an illustration. And when I was in college, I enjoyed basketball.
Speaker 1:But when I was in college, I started playing volleyball a little bit more. I enjoy volleyball, but the thing is. The truth about volleyball, though, is, depending on how large the team is, just because the person on your team may serve the ball and it goes over to the other side, and then they may hit it back, they may not, but if you're in the back left corner and that person has just served it on that other side, now what happens is you may hit the ball, you may not hit the ball. The ball may come to you, your team member might set it up to you, but the fact of the matter is that you might not be ready to play a part at that time, but the reality is you always have to be ready. You always got to be prepared during any point that ball be able to come back to you.
Speaker 1:You say how does this do as an individual? We understand that this battle of racism is not going to be won on social media. I mean, it can propagate information, it can be abused in certain things, but listen, it's going to be won inside of our homes. It's going to be one inside of our homes, it's going to be one inside of our churches, it's going to be one at Walmart. And the thing is, I believe, what we need to be able to turn the tide is to have an amazing sensitivity that, when you go out from whatever you do inside of your work, inside of your job, is maybe this is not the moment, this might not be the moment for you to do something, but be ready. You might be standing in that cashier's line and you want something, an adjustment that you know and perceive to be that which is incorrect. Then, gently and biblically, just address it, just speak up, just be a voice to say no, we can't accept that, that's okay. You can't listen to the jokes anymore by the deacon who you just say well, he's just old school, that's just the way he is, that's unacceptable anymore. You can't. You got to stand up.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, when your time comes, when it comes that you must stand up and say something, that is when the ball is officially inside of your boundaries, inside of your court, and then you must take action. Listen, we want the one quick, the one quick fix. We want the microwave solution. We want to press the button and put it in to all the nonsense. It's going to happen slowly, it's going to happen methodically. It's going to happen intentionally.
Speaker 1:You cannot expect a group of people who have been intentionally pushed out of the society to somehow just be unintentionally now regrafted back into society. It's going to take intentionality upon our part and seeing that, hey look, I'm going to have to stand up for my brother. And do you know what's powerful is one thing if I stand up as a black brother, stand up for another black brother, but it's another thing when a Josh stands up and says, hey, man, you ought not say that kind of stuff, because he has nothing to be gained by standing up for that. That's called what the love of Christ, isn't it? You have nothing to be gained by listening to that lady and not being offensive. You and personally speaking, you know what you say.
Speaker 1:When I see this, how this happens as an individual, as when I see individuals and how they interact with their society, yeah, I wish there was a quicker fix. Yeah, I wish there was other solutions and things, yes, must be talked about, but I believe, biblically, when we simply just love God, love our neighbor, and we're ready to take our stand when the time comes, I believe you will see turn, the time take place.
Speaker 3:It's powerful man. This is exactly what we wanted this conversation to be.
Speaker 3:I've got a couple random questions, miscellaneous, but they're things that I'm interested in personally as it relates to how I can interact with the African American community. But also the first one really has to deal with. You talk about the long process of eliminating racism in a society. Okay, the best way to do this right is not to pass it from generation to generation Exactly. I mean, we understand that racism is a sin that rises from the heart, got it, but it's also a learned behavior. How would you even suggest?
Speaker 1:that maybe you don't want to speak in this. How would, how, how would the typical white family talk to their children about racism? To understand your perspective or understand the black perspective in that conversation? Yeah, that great, great thought, great question. Even the lead in of understanding, man, that young people come around the corner as well.
Speaker 1:I think my context is really unique because it's not really hard for me to talk to my kids about prejudice and racism. I mean, when you get called the N word, I mean you got to explain like why did that happen? You know what I'm saying. Like it's not like that that doesn't go under. Like we try to protect our kids. And when people say dumb things, say, daddy, why'd they call you that? Why'd they say that? So from my context, it's not super difficult to bring up the race card, but I know there's a lot of other places that's real. That, that, that it, that it's like what do we, how do we approach it, and different things. You know I've, I've always encouraged parents to make sure that they are transparent about these issues. You know meaning like just make sure that these. You don't raise a child that is going to be prepared for society by not necessarily equipping them the proper way.
Speaker 3:This is a reality man.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not just blowing smoke, I'm not just trying to air out my beefs. These are many times. Listen to our country, listen to the people, protesters. We have to be transparent about these things. But also, I also encourage people to be appropriate. You know, I don't think it's, I don't think it's very wise to just let our children just watch. Maybe in your context you might let the children watch the video, but I know, for me, I just let my kids know hey, this is what happened, this don't want to give them nightmares and different things.
Speaker 1:So, talking about these things, and then also I would say that what this does for me probably the strongest thing, is, I believe that every parent should be praying with their children. You know, at some point leading the home as a dad and as I'm praying to my children, guess what we do? We pray about these issues. So when you get done with prayer time with your family and after you get done with prayer time, daddy, you were praying for what now? Why did you pray for that? Why would you pray for those individuals over there, you know, then it opens up conversations and it makes us, as a parent, be prepared to answer biblically what these things are about and what the things we should do to be able to address these situations. So I do believe there is an appropriate, there's a proper way to talk to our kids about racism and my only plea as a black individual, talking to a large white community and a large of other communities as well, I understand, but a large white community is this, is ignoring it and just going through.
Speaker 1:What it does is it raises ignorant children that when they get 21 years old just like the camp I was preaching at and different things, and a guy sits across the table from me and he says he's never met me before in his life, I've never preached before in his life, and there was a city. It was a time where the camp had brought in a lot of inner city children and the first thing he looked at me and said was this hey Adrian, I hear you're the preacher. Let's whip some black kids into shape. You ready to do that? It's like you would know. You can't say that you know what I'm saying If someone just raised and told you that there's a problem. You know what I'm saying and I believe that's lack of like, lack of training upon the parents and just hoping that you know la, la, la la finger in the ear situation is just going to somehow just produce this kid who's perfectly balanced when it comes to cultural things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a parenting issue and this was something that just arose up just a few years ago because there was a very obvious cultural moment that happened in the world of sports that really was an opportunity for a lot of parents to sit down and talk with their children, and that was with Kaepernick. Give us your take on Kaepernick, and why has I kind of sensed that the conversation has shifted? Now this is the moment in the podcast we're going to lose a lot of our audience and because there was some strong let me be the one who says it there's a lot of strong declarations by maybe you that are listening right now and you might be thinking well, wait a second, if I have to change my opinion on something, it might mean that I was wrong about something once in my life. But even with that being stated, I set up the golf ball there for you, put it on the tee. What are your thoughts there? Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe I assume wrong, maybe you have a different point of view than I think.
Speaker 1:You know, obviously, when you talk about politically charged issues and stuff, obviously you expect a response, and so I will choose my words very carefully. First, I'm going to cite history and say that Jackie Robinson, back in the day you should Google that man's name, jackie Robinson he sat down during the national anthem because it was a time when this is pre-desegregation, this is a lot of these different times and he said why on earth am I going to stand up to a national anthem where it truly is not a it's not true that all men are created equal. It's not. We're not treated equally, and him being the first African-American inside of the league. And so usually my question to always follow up with somebody about the Colin question is what do you then say to Jackie Robinson? Was he in the wrong? Now, if you ask me for my opinion, I'm going to say it very carefully I hate the fact that Kaepernick had to do what he did. I hate that fact. That's as deep as I'm going to go, because I don't win. I'm being careful how I choose my words. I hate it. But the fact of the matter is we've got to then understand how on earth you see people then say well, he makes all this money and different things? You know well, moses was doing pretty well inside the palace, so why on earth did he run to the wilderness and come back later with his rod and go up the fair and say, let my people go? You know what I'm saying. He was hurting for those. He was hurting for many of those who maybe didn't have a voice like he had. And so when I look at this as a whole, you know and see, you know the reasoning and stuff, the reasoning behind it and why, and taking the knee and the unfortunate, and being an American, here's what I come down Are we a Christian first or not? You know I gave this in a different podcast, but I think it bears repeating. You know I gave this in a different podcast, but I think it bears repeating.
Speaker 1:You know, when I was inside of an evangelistic service and there was a one black gentleman sitting across the table from me and there was a lot of white gentlemen that came and I was there to preach the gospel, that's my job, that's what God's called me to do. I thank him for it. And as I'm sitting across the table, we're having conversation at a steak dinner. And as we're eating this dinner we talk about life and different things, and then the situation of Colin Kaepernick comes up. And when it came up, suddenly everybody around the table had an opinion and put Kaepernick down to how horrible he is, how anti-patriotic. And I'm not telling you not to have your views. I'm not telling you not to have your opinions, but at this point, when it comes to the gospel, those things, you can take them and go to the opposite side of the room because the gospel is most important. They offended that man that was sitting across the table from me and that man was done during that conference. During that setting, I preached the gospel. The obstacle was so large in his mind that it wasn't that he even gave me two cents.
Speaker 1:And what I'm saying is we can then let our voice be muffled because we're insistent about making sure our political point is heard, more so than the gospel is heard. You know, somebody tweeted this. How do I know if I have made an idol of my politics? And he said when the war on racism is a left versus right issue, when it becomes about, you know, when I just begin to think like it's all political, there is still a humanity part of this, the image of God people who create differently is a voice for those people.
Speaker 1:I have a voice for the people that are that are. I pray every week of my life for those who are trafficked in sex trafficking. I pray for those who are in cultural situations that they cannot get free. I pray for those who are in pain so many different areas of life this could extend to when we get to a humanity issue, image of God issue, we got to put our situations down to the side and say what is most important here and I say let's stop talking about Colin, let's talk about specifically what is he trying to say?
Speaker 3:I remember the very first time I heard of the Kaepernick situation and his protest. Let's stop talking about Colin, let's talk about specifically what is he trying to say. I remember the very first time I heard of the Kaepernick situation and his protest and my initial response was that of wait a second. I'm an American, he's an American. Why in the world would he not stand for the American flag? This man is a terrible individual. And then I heard that it was a protest against police brutality and the way African Americans can be treated within our society, and I thought this was my thought. My thought was well, there has to be a better way. There has to be a better way than this to not stand for the United States of America.
Speaker 3:Then my wife and I were at a museum with our family, probably six months later, and as we were in this museum, I forget where it was.
Speaker 3:There was the original stools and the bar of back during the segregation, the civil rights movement, where those four young black men sat in civil disobedience at the bar stools, at a lunch counter where they were not allowed to be, and it was like the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said I wonder if there was a better way.
Speaker 3:I wonder, maybe if you were a pastor during that time, you would have said to those young men hey, don't go in there, they have a right to have a restaurant without black people. You need to figure out a different way. And then I remember we were in Detroit and we were at a museum where they have the bus where Rosa Parks was sitting. And I remember I walked in, I was like oh so proud to see Rosa Parks, as if I'm connected to this, I am as an American, but not as much as others and I'm so proud to stand in the bus and there's the seat where Rosa Parks sat. And I thought and the Holy Spirit said to me, maybe there was another way, maybe she could have figured out a better way.
Speaker 1:Oh man, and I thought to myself.
Speaker 3:Oh, the Holy Spirit just hit my heart with Kaepernick and said you know what, maybe in moments of desperation there are quiet ways to civilly disobey or even make your point. And that's exactly what was taking place. And I couldn't believe. The Holy Spirit just smote my heart and said I wonder what my position would have been in the 1960s. And then I was embarrassed and repented before the Lord.
Speaker 1:Those are powerful statements, man, and even as you even say them, it's like all these things are coming from a heart of consideration. Seeing the other side, biblical charity that you see and care for the brother man, that's, that's, that's good man.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate your time today, adrian. You know, regardless of what's happening right now in the world, I can't help but think you did a lot of good today and especially. You know there's lots of things you talked about, but I hope many nuggets were taken away and hopefully we can march forward to a better future, not only for us but our kids. You know, I'm a dad of a seven-year-old, three-year-old, two-year-old and a four-month-old and I can't help but think, like I want their world and the future to be better than the one we're currently living in right now, and that involves us observing a lot of things that you talked about today. So, thanks so much for your time and, you know, really pray that God bless your ministry because of it.
