A Burden For The Times
A Burden For The Times
Reflecting on Black History Episode #80
Discover the untold stories of Black history as we pay homage to legendary figures like Bass Reeves and Thurgood Marshall during our Black History Month tribute. Through lively discussions, we honor the achievements and examine the societal impacts of historical milestones, inviting our listeners to engage in a meaningful reflection on the past, present, and future of Black heritage.
Bass Reeves Introduction
Bass Reeves Book
Kids Book
Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl
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Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. As we now are here in February, which is historically called Black History Month, we might want to go back and listen. We talked about do we need a Black History Month? We did a podcast about that years ago, and so we want you to go back and you say, well, should you be having that kind of conversation, that kind of thought? Well, you go back and listen, you'll hear our thoughts about those things, and so what we typically do in the month of February, nevertheless, is to be able to go through some key names, events, historical figures or times from Black History and bring them to light and give them a little bit of airtime.
Speaker 1:So, right before we jump into that part of the conversation, let's start off with something light. The brothers don't know this question, and so I'm going to ask a question that we have asked before in the podcast as far as during this opening session time and my answer has somewhat morphed, and I'm wondering, if I lend my perspective to my brothers, will they then jump aboard my bandwagon? All right? So remember, a while back, we asked a question about for your life, would you rather have a fast forward button or a rewind button. You remember this right.
Speaker 2:Yep, I remember that one.
Speaker 1:And clearly everyone said say your answers. What did you say?
Speaker 2:I rewind, rewind. Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1:But I don't know, man. I've been really thinking about this fast forward button. I really have. You know, like, come on when you get sick, come on when, like, you have a really stinky time of life. You know, and it's like you know it's going to get better. You know Lord's going to deliver, but you can fast forward and go ahead and get there to that deliverance. On the other side, you know there's no need to sit there and go through all that wilderness time. Let's go ahead and get to the promised land, if you know what I mean. I don't know man, like I hear it Personality speaking.
Speaker 2:this is personality speaking. I don't know what this is.
Speaker 1:I just you don't know what this is. You don't see that as an advantage.
Speaker 3:No, because he may deliver you, but not in this life.
Speaker 2:You fast forward, the moves over oh exactly.
Speaker 3:Well, I get where, I get where you're coming from. You got to think before you get that. But.
Speaker 1:I guess you think you put your head down. You're like oh, I didn't realize that was going to be it.
Speaker 2:It was just the cold and I hit fast forward. Well, okay, so you all have it reconsidered in your answers, and I'm assuming, no, I mean I'm not even trying to get philosophical here, but I know it's going to end up that way. But I'm saying like when you fast forward through the times that you learn the most, like.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying you still don't learn the lessons. Just go ahead and fast forward and get the lessons infused into you in the fast forward time. I'm saying this like thank you, lord. I learned that for only five minutes, but I learned it.
Speaker 2:I did, lord. I learned that lesson on two times speed, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yes, says the guy who probably listened to his audio books on two times speed.
Speaker 2:I do not listen to audio books on two times speed because again, like sometimes, I'm like it's the joy of reading the book. So I go one point two, five. One point two, five.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay. See the issue is a fast forward button is only useful if you have a rewind button, because I have to know what I'm fast forwarding through. Otherwise it's really bad. So if you had both, sure, but you never want to fast forward button by itself, that's a dangerous game.
Speaker 1:All right. So I have become a little bit neutral on this one. So I before I was like, well, duh, who would choose fast forward? And now I'm kind of like, well, I don't. I mean, yeah, who would choose that? Now I'm kind of like I don't know.
Speaker 2:So anyway, when I say rewind, I'm pretty sure I said rewind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you said rewind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, I'm like I need to go back to the episode to see, because I'm pretty sure I said we want?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you definitely did, but anyhow, we're going. I didn't know if that had changed, but let's go ahead and get to the meat of what we're discussing here during this black history. Mum, hey, the goal here during this episode is not only to educate. We want to remember and we want to reflect on these stories. Some of these stories you might know, some of these characters you have might have heard from the past. But as we look into it, we hope that you'll take with a little bit more intentionality to be able to look into these lies so that we might be able then to gain and reflect on their contributions to history, especially as pertains to black history. So, aaron, it's pretty straightforward type outline we're. I'm going to go last, I think, this time. So we're going with Aaron and Anton, then we'll close with mine.
Speaker 1:And in the past we've covered a lot of different characters and stories. Let me just review those real quick before you give your character, event or story. Aaron, from black history We've talked about the Green Book, jackie Robinson, james Baldwin, Sojourner, truth Melba, malcolm X, webb DeBoy, henry Box Brown, richard Singleton, jane Boland, charles McGee, shirley Chillsom, jesse Brown, robert Small, ellen and William Kraft. We've covered a lot of names that are very significant. We encourage you to go back and listen to some of those episodes. It really was helpful for us in preparation to be able to study those lives that we might be able to share with you, and so I hope that if you hear those names, some of them might perk a little bit of interest of something that you would like to hear a little bit more about the list of those. So let's go ahead. We've talked about those in the past. So, aaron, who's your character, event or story from black history that we're going to highlight this month?
Speaker 2:Okay, so mine is going to be Bass Reeves, so we haven't discussed who everybody else has, but I don't think that anybody is going to get my, my, my pick this month, and so reason the funny part for me. One of the funny parts is why I picked Bass Reeves I was looking for. So I read a couple of books trying to get ready for this podcast. I think it's Jasmine Holmes wrote a book called Carved in Ebony. And we were driving on the road on the trip and I was like, oh man, I'm going to listen to this because she has like a list of all these black ladies in history and there are significant achievements. And I was like, oh man, I'm going to get my pick out of that. And as we were going down the road, if you've read the book Carved in Ebony, ebony, and you loved it, I'm glad it just wasn't my, my book. And so I, halfway through the trip, I was like I got shut, this off, I'm about to fall asleep.
Speaker 1:So I was just bored yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't know, have you guys read the book Hidden Figures? Yeah, like, when you read the book Hidden Figures, it's totally different than watching the movie of Hidden Figures. I have read the book but it is more like historical, like Anton loves. If I'm not, I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth right now, but you prefer it this way, don't you?
Speaker 3:You prefer, like don't give me the the word, honest and without drama, for no reason whatsoever.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly the non-friiled version. I prefer a little bit of frill, just a little bit. And so, uh, her book is great but sometimes, like you know how this is another discussion about the person I'm picking is there's not, because black history wasn't a big thing Even in Bathory's life like one of the first things to opening when you talk about his life, they say there was no need to record black history. Like why would you record black history? Is what the people thought back then. And so some of these people in Carved in ebony were like there's only a little information. And I'm, it felt like at times a lot of like just trying to take two, since two pieces together and connect this thread and I'm not sure if that threads there. And so, again, not a bad book. I mean, I think what she was trying to do was great. I just had her other books and I was like, oh, this is gonna be great. And so, coming into Reeves, the reason I got into him was because I was uh and this has done do with much but coming out of the bathroom at church and one of the older guys in our church stopped me and so he's uh, probably 75 or so older white gentlemen and he started the conversation in one of those conversations and I think you guys will know that you know this conversation has something to do with race, even though he hasn't said it yet Like he's like I have something in, like I was reading a book and just the way he came about it it was like Okay, I already know this has something to do. And he was like have you ever heard of bass Reeves? And I was like nope, never have heard of him. He's like you need to read this book. And so he told me the story about bass Reeves and he was like I just finished it. He's got to ask my kids for some books. And he was, and it turned out to be a great conversation. Like, like I said there's that moment where you're like oh no, no, where is this headed? And then it turned out to be a great conversation because he's like I asked my daughter For some books on Harriet Tubman. He said I'd seen something on this bass Reeve guy and he had named three or four different people that he was reading books on. He's like I just finished this story on bass Reeves. I think you'd love it. So I grabbed the book and I will say the book is again another no frills book.
Speaker 2:But the man himself, bass Reeves, is one of the first deputy marshals black deputy marshals out west and so I had never heard of him but listened to his story and then I went through a couple resources so he had. There's a children's book by about him. There's a Uh, a regular long-form historical book about him, but I found a podcast about him and that's gonna I'm gonna recommend later on. But bass Reeves being a deputy marshall, he was one of the first deputy marshals. He was an escaped slave. So he escaped slavery, um, escaped from the masters lots of different ways. I won't give you all the spoilers because I want I want to just put a hunger in to uh listen to his story. But he escaped slavery.
Speaker 2:He goes out to um native american reservations and becomes pretty much a law man and he's great with a gun. Uh, he can shoot with either hand, ambidextrous, I think. Uh, with a rifle, pistol, great with a gun. The man can't read. But when they would give him his warrants to go out because that's how he made his money was pretty much He'd just go out, get the bad guys, bring him back in and he'd get paid. And so when he bring his, when he gave warrants, he'd get a stack of warrants and since he couldn't read, he would have somebody read them to him and he'd memorize all his warrants. And so if you wouldn't pick up a stack of his and his warrants and ask him who it was, he could not read a lick, but he could memorize it and tell you exactly what it said.
Speaker 2:And they talked about how his memory, his skill, he was six foot two, I think they said 190 pounds. The man was in perfect shape and all his, uh, his adventures, so to speak, which are more than adventures when people are actually shooting at you. It's a lot more adventurous when it's a fiction story, but it's a little more real when these things actually happen. But he just walked through, uh, his life and the thing about his life is, like I said before, when you start first start looking at his life, he doesn't have a lot in his early life, because people are like, again, why in the world would you record black history? And I think this is another importance of why we have this conversation. But the reason we have a lot of the other stories from His life is because they did Record the people that he captured, the situations that he found them in in, um, in all the writings and the laws and things, and so when he would bring people in, they documented those things, and so that's how we get a lot of we know who he was and what he did and how great he was.
Speaker 2:So just a couple highlights of him being a marshal um, he was a christian and so one of the things he had a testimony for was Witnessing and preaching to any convict he brought in. So when he arrested someone, he preached to them all the way Tillie, uh, till he brought him in. Uh. There's also a story of him having to arrest his pastor. So his pastor that baptized him was also selling bootleg whiskey, and so he brought his pastor, brought him in. Uh. There's also the story, um, and it's a kind of tragic one but his son, his son's wife, was having an affair, and there's a lot of different ways the story goes, but he killed his wife, the son killed his wife and, uh, bass Reeves, again being a lawman, being a man of character, like he went and got his own son, probably also to save his son's life, um, but he went in, brought his own son in, put him in prison himself, and so you just walked through his the whole exciting adventure of what it is to be the cowboy.
Speaker 2:So we grew up. Well, I mean, I think I grew up. I can't speak for, uh, and Adrian Anton, what they like, but watching, like bonanza and those kind of things, and you always see the white cowboy. Well, reeves is the black cowboy and when you start looking through his the, the podcast that I'm gonna recommend and put in, is a dramatized. It has an e for explicit, but the only reason it has an e for explicit is because they talk about his shooting and like he shot people in the neck, he shot people in the chest and so they talk about that. That's not because there's cursing or anything else in it, but I'll recommend the podcast. It's worth listening to if you're like Anton and you like the no frills and like the gentleman who recommended it to me. There's also a book there and if you want the kids book, there's also a kids book that just highlights the the little things of his life. A quick run over, but bass Reeves is my guy.
Speaker 1:That sounds incredible, actually. I I mean because it's one of those things where, as soon as you said the name, I'm like I have no idea. Like I mean some of these names maybe I heard on the low but I didn't hear. I've never heard of that story and the fact that even as a christian to preach to those, it's like wow, like that's what an amazing part of the story. Almost like you kind of made it up, um, but I did google it just to make sure I'm reading a story. I'm like wow, but he has man, he has quite the mustache there too.
Speaker 2:Exactly he did. He was known for his mustache too, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I thought to myself, like wait a second, like I. People had asked me you want to go to your rodeo, adrian, when I was out west, or different thing. I said have you seen any black cowboys? Come on, it's like now you have. Here we go. We got our own john wane right here. Bass Reeves, bass Reeves. Anton, any commentary? Bass Reeves, had you heard of him?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I think he's popular. Of course you did, but he's popular again because he has a movie. I think that has brought him back to the spotlight Recently and he has a pair.
Speaker 2:There's like a paramount thing. I didn't even know about that. He uh, I only meant to that. Um well, ron, uh, brother ron told me about it and I was like, oh man, I'll check it out. And then I saw there was a paramount thing on it.
Speaker 3:But um, the other thing is he's the person that a lot of people believe the lone ranger was uh based on what? Um and what else was I gonna say? Oh, about black cowboys. There's actually a lot of black cowboys. Some of those things that it's good to bring up go back to black history, but there's actually quite a quite a bit of black cowboys.
Speaker 2:Because that's what they could do after slavery Exactly. They could go. And then he even talks about in the um book in the podcast, how there wasn't I mean, there was still racism. But one of the things that helped bass Reeves out west was his black skin, because no one took him seriously. So he could, he could. But there's also a lot more Um what was the word? Um collaboration I'm on the law people out there, so that Right then you didn't care when you're going to the new territory and you didn't know where you're going, like. You don't care if the guy next to you is black, native American, whatever, he just needs to be able to use his gun and do what he needs to do, and so that's all you care about.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a form of the military, because that's usually one area where it doesn't really struggle. So I mean, hey look, when we're going to battle, do you be green, can you? Can you protect me, can you cover me when I go ahead and do this? So that doesn't make a lot of sense. Well, bass Reeves that is totally introductory to me. And do you know the paramount show? That exactly it is.
Speaker 2:I have not.
Speaker 3:Washington, so don't.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's not a recommendation from the.
Speaker 3:I know of his existence.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, our anti, we're coming over to you. So what kind of name, event or some type of person from black history Should we be reminded of and reflect?
Speaker 3:The person that I would pick was Thurgood Marshall Great, probably most known for obviously being the first black Supreme Court Justice. However, he was involved in so many other things. He's obviously instrumental in the case of Brown versus board and Overthrowing the separate but equal In in the Constitution so that black people and white people go to school together in segregation. However, he also was instrumental in the NAACP defense fund and working a lot, especially through the late 40s into the 50s, of civil rights cases, being probably the Forebearer of people like now we have Brian Stevenson and so many other civil rights attorneys, but Thurgood Marshall was really the first person to make a civil rights attorney kind of a thing. There's also again, with most people I pick, I go ahead and take the things that I I do disagree with Thurgood Marshall I'll have to use. Very instrumental and rovers is Wade being passed. However, I do not think that overshadows his all the things that third good Marshall did for law, especially from an African-American perspective, because without Thurgood Marshall there is segregation to a large degree. There is no real civil rights attorneys because it wasn't even a thing until Thurgood Marshall really thought of it.
Speaker 3:The NAACP while we can disagree on where it is now was definitely necessary in the time when it was its inception.
Speaker 3:Thurgood end up going when he was in college to Howard because he was excluded, obviously, from all white law schools, which not only gave Howard and other HBC use or, historically, black college universities, um, it gave them credence because At that time you had never had a graduate of Thurgood's caliber as far as someone who did as much, going forward, so becoming a stream, court justice, things, that it's not like really, people had graduated but no one had it on the national stage in the way that Thurgood Marshall was. Um, I Also I think it's kind of you have to bring it up when talking about Thurgood Marshall Is that the American civil liberties and the cases that he worked on did transform Probably cultural thought, and I mean it is the inspiration of people like who would come after him as far as after the civil rights, as far as into the civil rights movement. So, like Martin Malcolm, a lot of their thinking is coming from Thurgood's Civil rights cases and he is one of the greatest legal minds probably in American history. So yeah, Thurgood Marshall.
Speaker 1:I didn't know Thurgood Marshall and know his existence there, but I guess I didn't think about his influence as far as Shaping the thoughts of the ones that would come after, like you know, the kings and the Malcolm X's and stuff. Because what, when did he die? Let's see here, for he died in 19? The year I was born, I think 93, I believe 93,. Okay, so it was so. Yeah, I mean so this is definitely during that entire civil rights era and different things, and to be able to shape the law, aaron, for you, any type of feedback, cultural discussion you want to have concerning Thurgood Marshall.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's good and it may be Anton's pick, but I think I've read Devil in the Grove about Thurgood Marshall. If you had another recommendation of a book or something to get to know Thurgood, but I've read a little bit about him, but I was just trying to see other things than the ones I've read.
Speaker 1:I have not, Anton. Do you have any other books or anything?
Speaker 3:Well, in Thurgood I don't there's a documentary that does. Well, it's going to be dry and boring, as Aaron would say, and it is leafy, I would say.
Speaker 2:I would say no thrill, no frills.
Speaker 3:Actually I'll send it to you. We can put in the notes.
Speaker 1:That's why.
Speaker 3:I don't get to the wrong one Now again, I will go ahead and put the thing out there. It is incredibly long, but it's very thorough Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Well, he was appointed by Linda B Johnson. I am just wondering and this is just, we're now talking and I don't want it to be a situation that now we're starting to leave an area to which we're comfortable talking with, try to be an authority about. But I wonder if there was pushback. Was there pushback of Linda B Johnson by him appointing Thurgood Marshall to that position, being in that timeframe, in that season, just knowing the political climate, especially as it relates to his civil rights and different things? Do you know anything about that? Was that highlighted in the documentary?
Speaker 3:Yes, it is. And again, I didn't know how long you were supposed to talk, so I didn't.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's just a follow-up question from that talk.
Speaker 3:I didn't want to go overboard, but he was a pellet court justice under John F Kennedy and John F Kennedy. Robert Kennedy actually received a lot of pushback.
Speaker 1:Oh, so he started there. He was given that position.
Speaker 3:After Kennedy obviously assassinated and Johnson becomes president. It even became more so because there became an open seat even higher and most people knew that by putting him in this position he would be pretty much being groomed to be a Supreme Court justice and a lot of people were very uncomfortable with that. So I mean there was an incredible amount of pressure and again you have to do give some credence to both JFK and to LBJ in that regard for standing up to the pressure at a time when that was definitely not what most people wanted in the country.
Speaker 1:That is very interesting. And, yeah, I didn't realize that the pressure had already began before he took that spot. It had already began growing and then, when it took place, the tension came to a head at that point. So interesting. So now we have Bass Ries, thurgood Marshall I think this person is known.
Speaker 1:I'm going to do a lady from Black History and we're going to make a little bit of a cultural observation at the same time as highlighting who she is. But the reason I chose her she's from Edenton, north Carolina, and Edenton is where I use, not say from. I mean, we're from North Carolina but I lived in Edenton for about five to seven years, so I do know the area. In fact, the church, the St Paul's Episcopal Church, is where she attended, and down the road from that church is a place called Christie's. Well, it was Christie's and it had the very best Philly cheesesteak in the country, and so I just all those years I lived there and ate so many Philly cheesesteaks and did not realize that just down the road this lady was born and her name is Harriet Jacobs. Now she's probably known mostly for her writing the book the Incidence in the Life of a Slave Girl that was published in 1861.
Speaker 1:Now the reason I highlight her and let me make the cultural observation before I tell a little bit about her bio, and that is I can just look at times in the Bible like Genesis covers how many thousands of years, obviously in scripture, and you see how culture does change, but usually it changes in the realm of hundreds of years or thousands of years. You see these cultural shifts being made. A lot of the same practices, maybe a foot washing, maybe having a shepherd and him though his practice with the sheep these things were just kind of what they did and it lasted for a very long time. Now I don't say this is the same level of making a cultural observation. That's changed, but cultures changed rapidly because we are now talking in 1861, she was born in 1813. So in fairness, you know 1850 and stuff in this timeframe and so coming to where we are right now a difference of 150 or so years we see that massively that some things have changed.
Speaker 1:Now part of that change is that the media, with this accomplice, the written page as well, has carried so much influence when back in the day the written page obviously carried the weight of the time. In fact, you just look about how many books were the ones that changed the thinking of the society, like Harriet Beecher Stowe who is not my pick, but Harriet Beecher Stowe when she wrote her book there in England and how it changed a lot of different mindsets about Uncle Tom's cabin and chattel, slavery and all the things that surrounded that. Then you come here to our present day that I dare say that if somebody had written a book about the George Floyd situation without the video, I really don't think it would have had the nationwide shaking that it had. And so culturally, for whatever it's worth, the media attachment that now has come with the written page is almost a becoming a necessity, so that now that you have that, george Floyd is a common name to anybody that lives in the United States due to that media portion that is attached to it. So what you have to do is think back in 1861 where the printed page had in similar ways that level of power as it was then being circulated in different things.
Speaker 1:As she was writing the incidents of the life of a slave girl, it was believed for years to be a novel and not an autobiography because she went under the pseudonym of Linda Brent, and there's still argument between archivists about whether or not it is an autobiography, from the evidence that I read and from even looking at her story and making the comparisons, I do believe and I do concur with what has been recently been presented at its truly. Her life events have taken place and because later on the year in the podcast we're going to be talking about some issues that are probably going to have us have to rate the podcast to be a little bit more of an adult level, I'll just try to keep it as general as I can. Concerning her life story, she lived at a place and she had a master who was took advantage of her to a good extent and propositioned her often, and she did fall in love with a free black man. But during the time that she was there to escape her situation, she made a difficult decision to no-transcript Be friendly with a person that was down the road who is another white plantation owner, and because the other man was treating her badly and this in this entire situation the her original owner she thought that maybe if she came in good graces with this other plantation owner, even though he was propositioning her the same way but was being much kinder about it he actually had two children by this man that was down the road that he thought that the original owner would say hey, look food on you I'm gonna sell you. Does that, say to him and get a good price for you know what you add of my life. That's what she's hoping, but on, but unfortunately he kind of sends her kind of to a plantation work and send her further away, as that became the case.
Speaker 1:A lot of other events transcribe, trans, transpire. She does have two children by that other gentleman who actually becomes a state representative in the future. But the key part of her life that basically I'm highlighting cuz you need a reader story. It's very intriguing, but one part is when she she was getting in a position where she needed to, she need to flee because of the pressure that was coming upon her and so she got ready to leave.
Speaker 1:She pretended to flee to the north and in fact she actually hid in a nearby swamp and then she knew she could not stay there and so she went to her grandmother's house and there was an attic about nine feet by seven feet that had basically a little hole that she had bor out so that son could come in, and she stayed in that attic and she wrote letters to the former, former slave Person who owned her and wrote letters cuz she had a senate to her children, as if she had freed herself and was living in the north, and she lived in that attic for seven years. As she stayed in that attic she actually wrote her autobiography. She had enough light to read her bible in the newspaper and she also would. So it was almost like solitary confinement in a way, as she staying inside of this Little space, as she stay hidden there for this long now lot more happens in her story that takes place and she is reunited with her kids years down the road.
Speaker 1:But it's just wow, just you look through all the different ways that this, the things of slavery and the follow up because 1861 is when the book was published, right there before the civil war, and all the stuff that led up to that point, and especially the treatment of women and how you don't want to let your mind go, but sometimes you do and you realize that where you let your mind go is actually a reality for some people and it also serve to be Harriet Beach not to the level of here at beecher stowe on the top cabin clearly Was the one that formulated a lot of thinking that, as Lincoln would say, right, the lady who started the civil war. And so when you look at her book wasn't to that level, but still really laid out a lot of different, let a different season people's mind of what was really taking place in chattel slavery. So, harriet jake, did you already know Harriet Jacobs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did. Yep, I think you're the book you recommended on its own one of the list of books that I want to read before she graduates high school, so it's one of those. It's one of those, I think 12. 12 years, slave by Northrop and instance life of the save girl want to even read the one and shy to read the other.
Speaker 1:It's all is heavy. It's heavy as for certain, and it's on Harriet Jacobs. I know you heard of her. Had you heard the discrepancy of whether her story was true or not?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I have. I concur with you, though I think again, it's. It's mainly Again I'm trying to choose my words carefully I think it's because there is a A competition between those two works. I think the race of both individuals do play a huge factor of why one is seemingly more important, although it's clearly fictional, and the other has A historical narrative that can be backed by both literature and other people at the time, and the other is A fictional work that is somehow an achievement in modern literature.
Speaker 1:That is so interesting because that you know, because it seems to me that the movie that you read when you're watching let's just put it in media terms if you're watching a movie and it says this is a true story, versus, you know, this is totally made up, whatever it is, seem like you would have more weight. That would go, that would go further with it. And actually she did reach out. Harry Jacobs did reach out to her at Beecher Stowe in England and this is In a letter and just sent her an outline of what she was getting ready to print and she really did not get behind it and Miss Jacobs actually was a little bit, you know, insulted in a way, because it was just kind of like, you know, I thought this was part of the plan and she I won't read her quote but thought she was a little bit trade to buy here at Beecher Stowe and some of the, some of the other different people I don't know who who is in charge of the printing and stuff at that time, but Anyway, all the days and the to the point of it being fictional or nonfiction, she did use the pseudonym of Linda Brent and she, in her own words, has said that the reason that she did not Use her own name is because of the book.
Speaker 1:When the book was published, obviously during her lifetime, her grandmother she did not want to read and put together that she did have two children by one of her one of the men that wasn't her master, but another plantation Owner and have two children by that man. Because she knew that that would just totally wreck the relationship that she had with her grandmother. And so that's why she tried her best to keep it as fictional as possible, because she didn't really think that anybody would ever understand the moral decisions that she was going to have to make by living the life she was living, because she said she did it for her own protection, because of the fact that of the person that did own her and the propositions that were coming her way. So A lot to unpack and her life, that's for certain.
Speaker 1:So cultural arguments or anything like that or any observations before we wrap this up, guys, I don't have any no thanks all right, I just wanted to just kind of see through there and let me just ask one for follow up before we go to our tips and tools, and that is Is it? And I want you to answer this is do you think that this whole idea of culture being measured in hundreds of years and scores of years and thousands of years Is it? Is it just a blind spot that we have, that we're saying that culture is moving quickly just because we're living in it, versus, as we look in the Bible, times and stuff, that a lot of cultures were similar, the same, even though you just flip Three pages in your Bible and moved nearly five hundred years and the culture seemingly was the same, as with our eyes. Do you think that's really the case, or do you think that we have a blind spot to ourselves and that we're thinking that culture is accelerating faster than it actually is?
Speaker 3:No, I think it is accelerating faster. I think I think you can see this in a lot of areas and I'll try to be quick, but that is a very deep question. I think you see some lot of areas is when you detach culture from its underpinning or its foundation. That's why earlier you said about the Bible at the Bible is your underpinning. Your culture can only shift truly so much, like again, you can go left right, slightly more liberal or more conservative, but the underpinning is always going to be the same.
Speaker 3:But once you detach culture from an actual underpinning and again I for us it's the Bible, I'm saying from really any religion or any moral structure, once there is no moral structure, culture is whatever the person wants it to be, whatever a group of people want it to be, and that can change very rapidly what people want.
Speaker 3:Again, if you want to say that Desires of your heart change momentary, moment to moment, and I think that's what you're seeing as again, as a broader society, culture can shift good or bad very rapidly If there's no underpinning, because people can be very easily influenced, because what is right and what is wrong Becomes a nuanced I shouldn't see him call it nuance it becomes a discussion rather than a fact and every moral behavior becomes well. Should it be or should we do this marriage again? You think of everything that is considered an underpinning, because in the hundreds of years, marriage was always considered the same thing until very recently, because the underpinning was always what the Bible said or whatever religion said. But once it becomes something else, anything can be anything and you really are in a very cultural shifty place.
Speaker 1:Oh, this, this. Yeah, you're right, this is a deeper question. I thought this was gonna be a quick, quick. No, I see the deeper question for certain, because that's that's like, if you don't have a compass, if we're not reading the same compass, you know you can go. We can go a lot of different directions, because if everybody's going east and we're not going east, you know we're gonna end up in some pretty crazy places. And so, therefore, is there's, but there always has to be a guiding point. That's there anyway. Wow, okay, didn't mean to go ahead and jump like ask that big question, but we'll have to revisit that definitely at a different time. But, aaron, you can have commentary or give your tip and tools as we ready to close this up.
Speaker 2:I Don't have because it yes, that's a deep question. Even when you said, I was like, oh wow, this is gonna take us a lot. But I think for me I was just thinking like, even if we're moving faster, we're hitting big shifts in culture. So it's not even just that we're moving fast, we're like hitting whole speed bumps and like just changing rapidly, like almost like earthquakes of culture, and so I think that plays into it as well. But I guess my pick would be and I put in the show notes there's a podcast. I find it again.
Speaker 2:I'll go back through what I said earlier and say if you're a, if you're just someone who wants to listen to something in the car on the ride, I'd recommend the podcast about, about Reeves. But if you're wanting to like actually delve into his life and pick up the book and read through the history and the stories and the articles and all those he does have, there is a book that is called the black gun, silver star, written by art Burton know of no relationship to us, artburn? Well, that I know of art Burton. And then the kids book is called bad news for outlaws, and so that book is by Michaels, I think, vada Michaels, and so I would recommend the kids book as the illustrations and all that if you want the regular book.
Speaker 2:But if you're just looking for something there, you just want to listen to a story about a guy's four episodes of a podcast. It's pretty good the way they, it's well done and so I would recommend it. Oh, I do need to put a caveat and though, again with the podcast, it's in a true crime podcast, so the podcast is called solve murders will put the link to the the episodes in it. But so, just so you know, if you click through it's a totally. They did a little series in a part of a true crime Podcast so that you don't get pulled in the true crime. I mean, I myself like a little true crime every now and then, but everybody may not be everybody's cup of tea.
Speaker 1:Alright, I appreciate the caveat there too as well. Mine's pretty simple. My tool is incidents in the life of a slave girl by Harriet Jacobs and Tom. What about you?
Speaker 3:A third good Marshall, american Revolutionary. It's both. There's a book and there's also a documentary. The issue that I'm finding is the documentary is currently behind a paywall, so I cannot find the documentary you do not have to pay for, so I will continue looking for though.
Speaker 1:Alright, and that is American Revolutionary by third good Marshall. I think these are some great picks. I, just when we look here at history, I definitely want to reflect upon what's taking place in the past. Personally, I try to do what holidays are meant for us to do. On Memorial Day, I truly do try to think about those who have given their lives for our country on certain holidays, like they're there for a reason, and so when we come to this month, I definitely want us, if we can, just try to take some time Intentional, because many times we usually just go through our entire life and forget about Certain groups and areas of people, and I know that we have a holiday Seminole day and everything else in the world that we have in our culture.
Speaker 1:But I do think you know when you when able to be able to take and remember things like this, and so we really hope that this has been helpful. And as far as you being enlightening about these things or maybe this is the rhythm that you Decide to use for you to have is the historical context is to list of this podcast. So, hey, we appreciate you doing so. Check out the tips and tools. Erin, it's on all hearts and minds clear before we wrap things up. Man, I'm good, all right, right. Well, we thank you for joining us. We have one more episode inside of this series of February, and so we look forward to you joining us next time.
