A Burden For The Times
A Burden For The Times
The Journey to Purity: Tips and Tools Part 3 of Pornography Series
Are you feeling trapped by the relentless grip of pornography addiction? This episode is a beacon of hope for anyone fighting this battle, offering not just spiritual encouragement but also practical advice for reclaiming your life. We lay out the roadmap to recovery, with an emphasis on the crucial role of accountability and the strength found in community. As we explore the impact of pornography on individuals and society, we commit to equipping you with the tools needed to break free and live in the light of truth and purity.
Join us on this transformative journey, as we share stories, strategies, and hope for a future unshackled by addiction.
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Hey and welcome to another episode of the podcast as we close up this series that we have been going through about this matter of pornography, something that is very, very prevalent in our society, even though not talked about a ton, and we thought to ourselves, it's really hard to do an entire podcast upon the theme of culture and race if we do not talk about the thing that is affecting our culture in such a large way. We talk in the first two episodes about what pornography has done to our culture, how it's really baked into so many things and even some of the habits that we even see now and that last episode pornification of a culture we just saw the depths of just how bad it becomes Sometimes this topic, as we're discussing it, can make us feel really heavy and really just discouraged, to the point of immobilizing us to doing anything about this. So this episode we desire to be an episode of hope. We hope this episode is something that can help anybody might be in a situation, or even in the grasp of pornography and trying their best, by God's grace, to have victory over something that they know is wrong, maybe ridden with guilt, or whatever's brought you to continue to listen through to the end of this series.
Speaker 1:We desire for this to be that of hope. So we're not going to start with a light question or anything like this, because we hope the entire podcast itself is going to be something that's going to be something that will be of hope and a lighter nature in itself. So, aaron and Tom, we've discussed a lot concerning this topic, about pornography, concerning this topic about pornography, and as we've gone through these past two episodes, we want to give hope to those. So let's start with you, aaron, as what encouragement can we share as we open up this podcast discussion? Pretty much an unpacking of tips and tools concerning this entire series we've been going through here.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest hope that I can give is that there's freedom in Christ, and I don't mean to make it like overly spiritual answer, but sin doesn't have to reign in our mortal bodies, and so we don't have to fall into the trap that the culture would say let's keep going, you have to do this, this is what everybody does, and those kind of things. I'm saying there there is hope. And then I'm reminded of what first, corinthians, six, 11, such were some of you. But you're washed, you're sanctified, you're justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and so, like there there's hope. It doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker 2:And then I would say also for those people who don't think it's that that bad and you'll continue to walk through it, I'm going to say there's hope on the other side of there's something better than what you're experiencing, because something you're experiencing that number one will never satisfy, it'll never provide the security If you're married, the security that your spouse needs, and it's playing out sin. And so anytime we live in sin, there is better, there is hope for something better, because our culture would like to tell us that there's pleasure in the sin, but scripture would also say there's pleasure in the sin for the season. So I would say there's hope.
Speaker 1:There is hope found in the word of God. So we're going to go from there, anton, we're going to ask you about some hope. But, just so you know, the premise of this podcast episode is pretty much. We do want to make sure it's very clear, because sometimes we can definitely give you the prescription of what is bad and we can do it very eloquently over two episodes, but we want to make sure it's abundantly clear that there is hope to be found. So, after Anton gives his answer, and I give my perspective as well, we're going to make sure to go through a practical step and a spiritual step that can be taken over in this path to be able to make sure that you understand.
Speaker 1:We're not just saying hope, hope, rah, rah, rah. Now go and figure it out. We want there to be practical ways in this, tips and tools. So, anton, what hope, what encouragement? We've talked about some heavy things. You've gone through and even told us about the small ways it's affected our culture, and you've gone through and told about the large ways it's affected our culture. What encouragement or light or hope can you share in this conversation?
Speaker 3:I'm going to have to agree with most of what Aaron said and just second that. But also I think that coming at it from both perspectives, both from people who are addicted to porn, people who even are in adult content themselves, I think we kind of think that by admitting to this we think that people's lives are over. And I'm going to second what Aaron said because I do think that it is obviously sin. But I think sometimes we see sin as the end. When we see the woman who, for example, was caught in adultery, jesus says go and sin no more. And the same way that it's an end, it's a beginning. But you can't have that new beginning, you know, kind of like again, when you baptize and you bring the person out grace to walk a newness of life, you have to die first. So we have to come to the conclusion that it's wrong, turn from it, and then after that we have a whole new life, we can live in Jesus. So I think that there's a lot of hope.
Speaker 1:I love how you just gave that gospel illustration of that. You know, the death, the birth, the resurrection, obviously pictured in baptism. Then, as we see that picture, that's then even put into a person's life, putting that to death, and obviously you can be raised to new life again. Definitely there's hope. There's for my answer about shining hope. I just want to preface and I should have said this at the beginning, but, aaron, anton, you're, you're welcome to disagree. Obviously this is the premise of the whole podcast.
Speaker 1:But I think I'm going to delineate between two different categories, because this episode, I think, will really speak to those who have a sinful porn habit, but then those who are full on addicted to pornography. There is hope to be found, absolutely. But I want to preface it because the matter of I don't want to get clinical here, but the matter of addiction would mean that it's a person's addicted to a point where they cannot function and daily activities. So the porn habit is so strong that a person's missing work, the alcohol addiction is so strong. They're not able to hold a job, provide for a family, have a stable marriage or whatever it is. Now there might be some that are listening that are in that category and that level of adult content has caused you to not even really to be able to function. Maybe you just truly Googled pornography and was trying to look for a reach out of hope and here you fell upon this podcast, and maybe this is the first podcast you ever listened to. There is hope in Christ. Please understand that very clearly. And that same resurrection power that we're going to be celebrating at Easter is that same resurrection power then that can be able to help victory overcome. But I do want to make sure it's understood as far as the comments that are made this time and this podcast specifically, is those who have a sinful porn habit. Because when it comes to an addiction and we get might get into this about practical steps, there is some serious overhaul help Physiologically there's going to be help. That's going to be intervention. There's going to be help. That's going to be intervention. That's going to be more than just maybe somebody checking in once in a while or whatever it be. It's going to be a definite intensive action on your part, and so just understand that I do hope the principles to be helpful. I just want to make sure that there is a definite understanding of those who have a sinful, pornful habit that they've been involved in and is causing destruction. I'm not saying it's one's better, one's worse, I'm just saying it's very few find they're equally destructive. It's just that the sin grip might be tighter with one than the other.
Speaker 1:With that being said, there is hope, because I remember when I was a young person, inside of camp and going different things, there would be this guy who would always give his testimony and he'd get up and say something to the effect like this he's like let me tell you, before I got saved, I used to do terrible things. I used to sleep around and I used to look at porn every single day. He went through this whole list of what he did. It was just kind of like, and then he told me about how Christ saved him and then how, how better his life is now, and and I and I thank God for testimonies like that, where Christ comes in and makes a change. But I think sometimes the glorification of that which he did was sometimes greater than glorification of staying away from what he did.
Speaker 1:And I'm just pointing out that when you look at the simple porn habits, I just want to say, like man, god can resurrect. But I just want to also highlight for those who have been in a situation where it hasn't been a habit or anything in your life. But do you just see how beautiful the joy that can be found and just maintaining a pure testimony before God, keeping a mind that is clear? You know there's a beautifulness to that and there is hope for those on the other side. I want there to be a salivation inside of a person's mouth to be like yes, god, by the resurrection power of Christ, god can bring me and create in me a clean heart of God, like David was like. I am so messed up, like, don't try to fix. Fix my heart, it's so nasty, it's so messed up. Create in me a new heart, oh God. God can then take that and create something new.
Speaker 1:I believe the salvation toward what God can do is a great hope to see what can the future look like. I'm just really hopeful that we're seeing that light. After all of the deep talks about AI and what the future may hold and how this has such a grip. There is truly to be found hope. That is there. So we've really emphasized hope is to be found. So let's now talk practical, let's talk spiritually about what can one do to then take a step in the right direction to get victory over whether addiction in some people's case, or whether over a sinful porn habit that a person would have. Aaron, we're coming to you.
Speaker 2:The biggest one that I have is most likely, for I mean, it may happen once in a while that someone can beat this on their own, but you're going to have to have help, you're going to have to reach out to somebody, you're going to have to shine light in that dark spot, and so I think that's the one probably everybody's most afraid of. Like Anton said, that sometimes we believe sin is the end, but I believe you're going to have to find someone that I would say is trusted, someone with wisdom, and you're going to have to go ahead and just shine light in all the spaces. And when you shine light, sin has a hard time hiding and taking root in those places. And so that's one of the first ones for me. I would say just reach out, and I, I think the Lord, for people in my life like even as a young, when I was younger and younger pastor, like guys who are not necessarily in this area but in other areas, like I could just walk to them and say, hey, this is what I'm struggling with.
Speaker 2:I think of a guy who was in um when we were in Florida, um, like, hey, this is what I'm struggling with. I've had guys when I was in Michigan. Uh, another pastor like hey, this is, this is where I'm at, and having those kinds of conversations and people like that who can talk with, to me is one of the keys to victory, because as long as you keep thinking that you're going to beat it by yourself, it's kind of like the darkness is there, it's in the dark. It's like, oh man, nobody knows about this, I'm going to do better next time. I'm going to do better next time, I'm going to do better next time until you just have somebody that can help you.
Speaker 2:And I think what is it? Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Life Together. I believe it's in Life Together and I may be quoting it wrong, but he says we need the Christian brother when we're struggling, because the Christian brother can speak truth into us when we're not speaking it to ourselves. I think that's as close, at least close to the quote, and I think that's what we need sometimes is to shine light in that area to be able to get the help we need.
Speaker 1:I think this is a perfect place to be able to add in a quote from CS Lewis, because Aaron's highlighting being vulnerable, because I do not believe there's any help that's going to be found until a person exposes and says you know what. I'm willing then to say something that is hard Confess your faults one to another is scriptural and we know that, and so therefore, at some point there's going to have to be some type of degree of vulnerability. Cs Lewis described every man's struggle with vulnerability this way. He says to love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken.
Speaker 1:If you want to be sure of keeping your heart intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully around with hobbies and little luxuries, Avoid all entanglements, Lock it up safely in the casket of your selfishness and in that casket safe, dark, motionless, airless it will not change, it will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable and irredeemable. The only place outside of heaven where you can be perfectly safe from the dangers of love is hell. I mean, it's a powerful quote. As I look at it and trying to digest some of those things that are said, it's just like you can pretend and we can sometimes mask all of our vulnerabilities with all of our luxuries and go buy this and go buy that, but at the end of the day, if there's ever going to be true love to be found, there's going to be a measure of vulnerability and there's somebody in your life that you must love enough to be that vulnerable to Anton. Any commentary upon Aaron's comments.
Speaker 3:Again. Me and Aaron are going to keep saying the same thing, so I'll just I'll let you go over there. It's okay, it's fine, I like it this way. I can co-sign everything Aaron said. And then I would just say as far as addiction, I think you have to add an aspect of accountability, and I think that it's more than just the talk and the lip service, but also making sure that your actions are monitored by others, and that daily or monthly or whatever accountability is also equally important.
Speaker 1:Okay, so accountability, we want to take practical steps. So obviously would y'all be talking in a church context. Is that what y'all be referring to? I can speak in either one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can speak in either one. That's why I'm saying I'm not outlining what the accountability would have to be, but I think, if that is internet filters, if that is someone else keeping track of what you're, but I think, if that is internet filters, if that is someone else keeping track of what you're doing online, if that is, I need to shut down Instagram. If that that's what I'm saying. Like, it can look a million ways in my opinion, but someone else needs to have those passwords, someone else needs to be able to access that information and especially, again, if you're struggling at that level and again, obviously we're talking about a trusted person. It can be a spouse, parent, if you're younger, good friend, pastor. That's something it doesn't have to be in the context of a church, in my opinion, but somebody else should be have access to that information if we're at that level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just wanted you to say those words about giving illustrations of who these individuals are, just putting titles to these people a friend, a coworker, all these different things because we have somebody in our life and we have to be able to give the keys to this huge casket, I guess, of a way to say it to somebody. Now I'm going to double down on the church aspect, because to me, I made a point last time in the pornification about culture, in part number two, about a pulpit-based culture versus a group-focused culture and stuff, and I would really recommend, even if your church might be more of a pulpit-centered thing, where Sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night or whatever service is, or it works out that there's a place to find and I know it's a buzzword, but find a community, and that buzzword is something to be said for, because I mean, they were going from house to house to house to house. You can only fit so many people in a house when they were going to house to house, right, and so when you have that many people, there's going to be intimate conversations and in those intimate conversations there has to be a biblical model to be able to be followed of then encouraging one another into godliness and this would be exactly that. So basically, I hear Aaron said it, then add a little bit more. I'm just going to hone in on the one part about the church community itself and just say man to have these relationships. And just say man to have these relationships, you have to be intentional.
Speaker 1:I have found that most times people really desire to have a best friend. That is truly and with human nature. It's like I was talking to a group of young adults at a time and I was like you think it just goes away after you get married and after you have a couple of kids that you don't want a best friend anymore? Everybody wants a best friend. Everybody wants somebody they can lean into to some degree and some people as adults will look very enviously at somebody else who seems to have their best buddy. Every time they go shopping they have their best buddy with them and many times there's like a jealousy among as you become in the thirties and forties or whatever it is of people who have that kind of relationship and do you know what? Those relationships just don't happen. Not to say you got to have a best buddy, but it might take in that church community, to put yourself out there first in order to receive that which you are so longing for. And so, in this aspect of accountability, you can't expect that a person's going to drop all their feelings to you and the only thing you've talked about them is the NCAA brackets. There's going to be at another level of where they are going to be willing to share these things, and so I believe in that church group. That's a practical step.
Speaker 1:I just want to add this one other step too as well, and it'll probably get into this, and this will take the rest of our time, as it was in this episode. As you go to, you know we got some books, you know we got tips and tools, because that's really what the episode surrounds about. But I do want to address real quick about the matter of the, about addiction and stuff, because there are different retreats that are there too as well, and this might be a spiritual step that some people might need to take. Is there's intensive counseling retreats? I'm thinking of restoring the soul Um, there's, that's one retreat, and there are others to be found as well Um, where, if you want to get serious you know what I mean If you want to get serious and you're, you are.
Speaker 1:You make the sacrifice of get it. Take your vacation, time off, work. It's an investment. It's greater than just you're giving up an hour of your week to have a council on Zoom. It's more than just meeting with somebody and saying, hey, look, how's it going? No, go away, go to camp, so to speak, in an adult sense. Go to camp, remove your distractions, drop all the temptations that you have and take a two-week or one-week or one-month course with some person who's intimately aware that, basically, you're paying somebody to be your best friend to jumpstart what you really need to be doing to get those right habits. And so we've made different steps, but that's a very practical step that I believe could be, and there can be recommendations that can be given. I just gave the Restoring the Soul one that focuses on marriage. It focuses on all types of addictions and different things as well, and if you're not looking for a one-stop shop, you're looking for a jumpstart for the future, and I believe that would be super helpful.
Speaker 3:But anyway, Can I say one Sure, okay. I'm just going to add something. This is not I'm not trying to derail the conversation, but I am just going to add that I think the people who need to hear this conversation the most are I'm still considered young by some people's standards, but I would say the 40 plus individual males in the church yesterday, when I said about the church not doing a good job, don't expect 17-year-old boys to find you to talk about the problems. You find them. You're 42 years old. You have a life of experience, a wealth of knowledge.
Speaker 3:In my opinion and again, I'm not saying that's what you're saying at all we put this on young men to do old men's jobs. They're not going to look for you. I'm just going to tell you, the majority of them are not going to look to find you. You need to find them. That's why you're in the church, that's why you're in that leadership position. That's your job. So to me, I think we put a lot of pressure on the people that are still afflicted by the problem. And so the people who are saying you need help Well, yeah, problem. And so the people who are saying you need help well, yeah, so they need help. Go find them and help them, bring them back. There's like in the jesus talks about the sheep bring them back. That's your job, you're. If you're a pastor, you're a shepherd. Lead them back.
Speaker 1:That, that's what you're there for can I push back a little bit real quick and then not push back in a like a challenging way, but let like I want clarity, okay, um, in that role? Um, because I feel like, okay, I'm 39. So I'm like this in-betweener right, like like people don't think I'm so old that I'm not relatable, but at the same time, there's a definite age gap that is there from the 20 somethings that are coming out. I'm old enough to be their father, right, and however, doesn't do you think, though, titus 2, I'm a huge fan of Titus 2. Of course.
Speaker 1:I'm a fan of the Bible, right. I love the passage in Titus 2. And as is, yes, the older should teach the younger, and stuff. But is it weird to go to somebody who doesn't feel they have a need yet, like, doesn't there need to be a brokenness? Because to me it's indicated by a brokenness. When somebody comes to me, I remember a young man coming to me and pouring his heart out about needing help and taking me out to eat and discussing these things, like. So when that then takes place, to me it's like okay, titus 2 in action. But are you saying Titus 2 is in action when you just kind of notice some tall tale signs that every time you walk up to them, their phone is immediately being shut off, close, close, close, you know, click, click, click, lock, lock it down, like is that what you're saying? How do you see that as being forget the word but implemented with a person that's younger?
Speaker 3:uh, my opinion and I think you're actually exactly where I think a lot of people are in that, and again, I'm not saying that that's completely wrong. The issue that I have is I think Titus 2 is preemptive. Ok, like again, I'll put it in your life. I don't think Brother Gatlin waited for people to have problems, but I think once you did, you wouldn't have found Brother Gatlin because you already had that relationship.
Speaker 1:I think, once you did, you wouldn't have found Brother Gatlin because you already had that relationship.
Speaker 3:I think we have a lot of people who are sitting here waiting for something to be on fire. Then they want to go get a water hose. When it's like you're not in that position, the reason no one's talking to you is because why would they? You have not put yourself or implemented them into your life to where you are, that counselor that when a guy is struggling with something, he comes to that old man at church. He doesn't. He comes to the old men down the road because they actually made a relationship with him. He goes to his basketball coach because he actually took the time to have a relationship with him. So I think we are not doing the work in the beginning. We're trying to get it all done on the back end, like once he's addicted to porn, let's have a conversation about it. Once he's addicted to drugs, let's have a conversation about it.
Speaker 1:And to me just counterproductive. Yeah, a normative culture of discipleship should be in the church, so your conversation is larger than just porn. Your conversation is just as far as them there being an interaction at some point. If you have a multi-generational church, the older must talk to the younger in some type of form. Yes, it's good to have conversations on everybody's age level and like right now I talk about kids stuff that like what are teenagers doing? Because I have a teenager so it's more comfortable. But at some point, some way, some level we have to be discussing Aaron, any commentary about when it's been spoken?
Speaker 2:No, I agree with that 100. Cause I was about to say it but you guys were having a conversation and so I'm like, yep, that's what I was going to say. It's just you have to have the relationships already built. So when the fire does come up, like Anton says, people will come to you because there's no reason to come to you if there's no relationship or anything there. And so I don't say it for like anything, because anybody I am, but because people did it for me. Right, mike did it for me. I have like two or three guys that have, I would say, more access to me than most. Like if they and a couple of them have, they're like, hey, can we go to breakfast tomorrow, six o'clock in the morning, and I'm like my schedule is open, let's do it and we'll walk through stuff again. But those fires would have never I couldn't help put out, put out those fires if I wasn't already there, walking with them through life to begin with. And so, yeah, I agree with that, wow.
Speaker 1:Well now, with those things being said, let's get down to what we typically do at the end of every episode, but now at the end of a season, I mean a series here about tips and tools. So I have a list of tips and tools that are electronic in nature. I'm sure y'all have those that have books. So if you have books, let's start there and then we'll go into other tips. If you have tips, we'll end with that, but if you have any other tools outside of books, we'll do books first, then any type of tools outside of books and then any tips, and then we'll call it a day, so we'll start with books. Anybody got a book? That's a dumb question. Anybody got a book that y'all want to share? I?
Speaker 3:have two quickly. I know you guys probably have more than I do. I only have one because I just narrowed it down. I want it to be good. The porn myth is a secular discussion of porn in-house Porn negatively affects society as a whole, and then of porn in-house porn negatively affects society as a whole. The one from a Christian perspective is overcoming porn addiction. I think that does a very good job of biblically laying out both the issues in porn and healthy ways of recovering in a life through a spiritual perspective.
Speaker 2:What was the?
Speaker 3:second one, overcoming porn addiction.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:Mine is Surfing for God. That's my pick by michael cusick and, uh, I I really appreciate it. Um, well, the reason I like this, like the book um, is because it goes to the root of something, because sometimes porn arguments can be just stop it, what's wrong with you? Stop it, it's bad, stop. And it doesn't really discuss what are you searching for? Why is this continuing to happen? There's more to it and I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:He has a podcast that he does as well. Admittedly, I don't know all of his views upon everything. I just listen to it time and time. So I'm sure you might listen to something and be like hey, adrian's, you know how would you be recommending this? But I'm just saying I appreciate the book Um. It gives me a lot of perspective to as well of the depths, um, behind the thought process as well. And really, cause, at the end of the day, you're surfing for't know it, because what you're looking to fulfill you, only God can fulfill you. And it then takes that, and maybe that's just how my brain works, cause for me it's just kind of like like, why do I keep doing this? There's a reason why. Now let me get to the root of that so I can then say all right, address the root, so we can go further.
Speaker 2:So surfing for God by Cusick Aaron. What about you? I have a number one, but I'm only going to give one because I believe really it's my favorite. I've walked through it with a couple of guys and that's the Death of Porn by Ray Ortlund. It is my top pick and I will say, if you're going through a porn addiction that requires extensive therapy and those kind of things, this may not be the book, but for your average person who's struggling, the Death of Porn Men of Integrity, building a World of Nobility is, hands down, my favorite.
Speaker 2:I've read some secular ones about it. I haven't read the ones you guys have, so I'm going to add those to my reading list, but I've read a lot of Christian perspectives on it. Read, read one weird one. Uh, recently, um, before we even had this conversation, and it was just like Hmm, I don't know, they're talking about explore your porn habit, like one said, like your book in, explore why you're looking for God. They're like explore why you look at this porn, what kind of porn do you like? And I'm like what in the world? Kind of questions. So it got super weird. Um, porn, what kind of porn do you like? And I'm like what in the world kind of questions. So it got super weird, um, but it was used by some Christian counselors so I was like, all right, I'll check it, but I guess you have to be a trained professional.
Speaker 2:Use that book and I am not a trained professional, um, but the Ray Orland's book. The reason I like it is because it talks about it from every different perspective. It talks about the perspective of God's called you to more, but then also talks about one of the great chapters is he has a lady who writes her story of um sex work and like uh, in the adult porn industry and just talking about how five minutes for this guy is a lifetime of struggle for me and how all the things that she walked through, and it's just a powerful story for her on the other side. But then he walks through again that accountability, but he doesn't in such a way that it's never he condemned sin for what it is and never shies away from it. But then he walks through the grace of God and what God can do to people who will turn, and it is still hands down Again.
Speaker 2:I've walked through a couple of guys. My dream would be to at least in every church have, at least in our church have someone who runs a group that just continually just keeps running the book back through. Take three or four guys runs the book group back through, runs a group back through and uh, to put it together, because I think that would be me and a couple of other pastoral guys um, have taught through it and it's like that would be a dream to have this in our church so that it'd be an asset to those. But that's my book wow, that's man.
Speaker 1:You've you made it very, very intriguing. So the Death of Porn. That's the brother of the guy who wrote.
Speaker 2:Son, I mean, he's the dad, raised the dad.
Speaker 1:Ah, raised the dad. Okay, portland, okay, I recognize the name. I was trying to figure out where.
Speaker 2:He talks about being an old man. He's like I'm an old man and I made some dumb decisions. He opens the book about how men were saying inappropriate things to women and he didn't say anything about it. He just confesses. And then he confesses the sins that he's struggled with, and then he just walks through it in a biblical way. It's still one of my hands-down favorite ones.
Speaker 1:So we've gone through books and you know that for this podcast, you are very well aware that I'm sure there's enough reading material to last you for a couple of lifetimes if you listen long enough. However, we also want to make sure that there are any other, not just books, but other resources. So I found some electronic resources, and do y'all have any electronic resources that y'all want to highlight, because I don't want to steal anybody's thunder, so to speak, or do y'all not? I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't really. I have thoughts on them, but I want you to share yours first, and this is not going to shoot you down after you get them. I just want to hear it.
Speaker 1:We'll see, all right. Well, the electronic resources, just because we live in such an electronic digital age. So I was talking to this one guy and I won't go into the details of how we were chatting, but he wanted victory over a certain area of his life and and so when I started discussing things with him about, okay, so we won. Okay, so this pornography issue, so let's start with your phone is that where you look yes, okay, so the phone. So are we willing to get rid of the phone? What? No, no, no, no. I'm not. Basically, he wasn't there yet. That's the whole point I make is, this is a tip that if you're there, like if you already the sick and tired, sick and tired of the sick and tired, kind of did the whole I'm not going to do this and then you fall back and then it's like works for a little while and then six months later you're back at it. You know, very characteristic of a terrible habit slash addiction. And so if you're there, then listen to. I guess this is I know that there's Bark, there is Accountable to you Covenant Eyes I'm trying to think of all the different other ones that are there and I do find that there's great value in those Downloading the VPNs and putting them on your device. Especially if you have an Apple device. You have to definitely have very specific VPNs put in place for these things to be effective at all. However, I have learned that when you're the person installing it, then you're the person who typically can uninstall in some cases not in every case, because some is super password protected or whatever it is but there are some times where you're sitting at the Chipotle line and you need to pull up your app and your Covenant Eyes is covering some type of hidden feature. And now your API. Now you can't use your get your points. You know what I mean. Like we figure out a way to get through it. It's all I'm saying. And I'm saying is these are great. These are great resources Don't get me wrong and these are. Be where you are and you're like you know what. I've never explored these before.
Speaker 1:Covenant eyes these are things that are filters that can be placed upon a device in order to make sure that they're safe. Searching. That is there, but with new websites being done every day, updates being made literally by the minute On different operating systems across the world, what I'm just pointing out is that sometimes they are a great help, but they are not. Let's not make sure it's a solution Right, and to me, if you are there, there is life beyond having a smart device. There is truly that, and I want to give this make sure this gets airtime and recognition that there are devices that you can buy, like the light phone, l-i-g-h-t.
Speaker 1:The light phone it essentially is a. Just imagine a Kindle, the black and white e-ink Kindle. That is a phone, because what it allows is there's no pictures. The only thing you can do is pretty much you can text. It has maps on it, very basic. You're able to get email, text-based email and different things to the device, but under no circumstances you would have to go to a desktop to be able then to access any type of photo whatsoever. So there is no temptation for social media, there's no temptation for TikTok videos, and so what I'm saying is there are pathways that are out there in order to pretty much excuse you from that very.
Speaker 1:If your base temptation is that of images, that it can be gotten rid of only if you're willing then to be like okay, I'm going to take extreme measures because I do believe my purity of my mind, is worth the convenience of my day-to-day Because there's no way around it. It's not as convenient as having a digital, rich text, rich, colored map telling you where to go, versus an e-ink display. So there are those that are out there. I encourage Light Phone. There are other, the one with the pinwheel on it too as well. That's the phone that for teenagers that is often used, has an operating system that only accessible not able to receive pictures or that kind of thing only text messages at certain hours of the day. And there's other filters like the circle and others that go on actual, different internet, internet, the word I'm looking for. What's the modem? I go onto your internet modem as well. So do y'all know of any off the top of your head, other ones that I'm missing?
Speaker 2:You mean your router. But yes, I know what you're saying.
Speaker 1:Your router. Thank you, yeah, any other ones that y'all are thinking of that are electronic based ones as well, and I'll just ask for y'all's input. Do y'all's input? Do y'all find that I'm being harsh on the Covenant Eyes community and those by saying that I'm just trying at least just understand my heart? I'm not trying to hate on it, I just want to make sure that the limitations are known. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm agreeing 100%. I don't think any of them can be used by yourself. I think the big thing for me and I'll'll also add this I think we talked about a little earlier but and this is aaron's opinion, I believe I can back it up uh, but I don't think that your spouse, husband or wife whichever one struggles with porn should be your primary accountability partner. I believe, just like the uh, just like the uh, just like the apps there, there needs to be someone else in there, because it I believe it helps in the thing. Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the part of the process, not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I don't think they should be the primary.
Speaker 2:If there's a guy and I'll speak guys, cause that's mainly what I understand and what usually I work with I think it helps to have another guy, whether older or what, to be able to help speak in and that the wife can reach out to and say, hey, check on my husband, hey, this and some of those alerts.
Speaker 2:I think it's more helpful for them to go to a guy who again, I'm talking the right guy, I'm not talking a guy who's going to skirt over the table and not tell the wife anything.
Speaker 2:I'm talking to someone who's going to be willing to address it, but to get some of those alerts and some of those texts, because sometimes there is, in the world in which we live, context in those. But if you have covenant eyes or one of those and you get one of those alerts and it's your spouse and they're the first one to get that alert, like either sometimes there is it's like oh, that was an ad and you can prove that that was an ad, but that's not what the spouse is thinking, especially if they've been hurt in any way. And so again, I could be wrong on that. I am not a trained counselor, but I just it just seems like from my experience, to have someone else to be able to the wife not have to come in all the time and be the person who's like this happened, this happened and always confronting it helps to have somebody else do it.
Speaker 1:I don't see anything wrong. I think that's just knowledge applied, which would be called wisdom. It's just you've taken the life circumstances, you have a person who you have a one flesh relationship with, somebody who is definitely going to be benefited if you get over this habit. So obviously there's a dog in the fight that you are then giving the keys to somebody else besides them because they would have a sometimes a vested interest in the advancement of your progress. So it makes perfect sense and then doesn't put them in a position where they're then trying to weigh out whether or not you know is this going to be their battle, to then take on because they got the alert. Do I say something, do I not? Do I? You know that's a lot of extra for a covenant, a person that you're in a covenant relationship with, and when there could be other people that you could be vulnerable to to make sure those things. I think that's fine, anton. Any commentary?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:Dumb, anyway. Well, that those were the books. There's electronic resources. Any tips as we close out here? Any tips, aaron?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'll go first and then the one tip that I have, honestly, is a little side, but as a dad, as a mom and I I'm still working how it looks in my own life and like when my kids are aged, but have conversations with your kids, go ahead and have those conversations that there are things on the Internet and like some parents, like they got there's kids books and all that, like little kids books. It's like if you see bad things on the Internet or whatever, and you know your kids better than I will, uh, follow the leading of the Holy spirit. I'm saying that I believe there is an age to which you can arouse more curiosity than necessary at certain times, and so I say, be careful with that. But I would say, have conversation sometimes. Um, it amazes me because and can I say I'm trying to make sure I say this properly that doesn't hurt.
Speaker 2:I feel like as a young adult pastor, even as a youth pastor I've had a lot of conversation with teens that their parents should have with them, and I think having those conversations early it's not, it may not stop them, but I would say it would definitely help them navigate some of the things that we have in the world, and it's not because you have to be the most tech savvy person in the world. You have to know every website and every, like you said, every VPN, every. You just have to have a conversation of. God wants so much more for you and what the world's going to try to do is going to give you something that's not going to satisfy, and you're going to try to pursue it just like we do in so many other parts of life, and just have those conversations, and I feel like those are key. If parents would have those kinds of conversations, it would be very helpful in their children's lives.
Speaker 1:Man, what a great tip. I mean great application. I mean we weren't going that direction specifically as we were discussing this, but, wow, how to bring the family back in it. Anton, from you any final tips or thoughts as you close this up?
Speaker 3:I guess more of a thought, kind of like Aaron. Again, I co-signed everything Aaron said and I can say as a law enforcement officer, you know what I did had a lot of conversation with kids that their parents had had with them. I thought the same thing. So I agree with everything you just said. I also think as parents I think we've said this before, but we talk about you know, the Bible says to dwell on things that are pure, lovely. It's kind of like which. I know Aaron still drinks a lot of sweet tea. If you haven't had sweet tea for a long time and you just drink water, then you drink a glass of sweet tea. You're like why would I like this? It's just sugar water. Why am I doing this to myself?
Speaker 3:I think if, as parents and as a society, if you just raise people in a world that is pure like, if we walk in this path, I think other things become less appealing. I don't think you have to just fight and beat everyone. And again, I think it's one of those times where people feel like what the church has to offer isn't a good product, because it doesn't seem like it is, because it seems like you have to beat everyone to stay in line when it's like if, if this life is good, if this life is lovely, if this life is beautiful, why do you have to beat everyone to stay here? I think it's a. It's a very I'm not gonna say easy.
Speaker 3:It's a very weird line that we walk when it's like we are putting up I'm not going to say bears, I don't know what word to use we are so afraid that our kids will be drawn to things that are unattractive and pathetic that we can't have a conversation about them. It's like we have to lock them inside so they won't do a terrible thing, which, to me, is a little ridiculous. I think if we do dwell on these things, we will be happy and they will be happier. I think if we do dwell on these things, we will be happy and they will be happier. I think if you give them that message instead of, in my opinion, the message of we never talk about anything that's uncomfortable or would be bad, that I don't think that's going to work. I think that's why you have a lot of kids who want to see everything the world has to offer, when you could just tell them what it has to offer, tell them how it ends and tell them a better message. I think would be far more productive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're doing a lot of co-signing today and I like it because we're very much unified upon this topic. I don't think there's a whole lot of wiggle room when you have a biblical worldview, but I guess for me I'm not going to have some fancy illustration or anything like that and I'm just we end the podcast with that God, this is a faith position that God wants the very best for your life. God wants your life to bring him glory and I know that we have gone through the practical reasons why it is that you should stay away from this and how it could this and how it could hurt and how it can harm and what the conversations that we need to be having and those things are super important. But from a faith-based position of understanding to restore that which was lost in Eden to then that God did create an order and a structure, god did not create chaos, and I think personally, if I were unsaved, even if I did not have a biblical ground, there would be a small part of me that would then say that there is something messed up about what the pornification of our culture has done. Even as an unsaved person that was walking in darkness, there's something not cool about this situation and as a believer, and knowing it full well and having God's word to be able even to enlighten, I just take a faith-based position that the Lord definitely wants the best. And so, for no other reason, even if God doesn't bless me with a pure mind, even if God doesn't bless me with a marriage, that then has to be tainted with guilt, or walking into different malls and wonder to myself, oh, I hope we don't walk into that girl because, boy, I saw her one page or whatever it's called.
Speaker 1:Oh man, what I'm saying is, even if those things weren't even on the table, just pray that I would then say, god, because you said so, that you wanted my mind to be then in a covenant relationship, loving my wife, and let my love for my wife be an outgrowth of how I bring you glory.
Speaker 1:If that is all, then I desire to do it because I love you. So I really hope, from a faith-based position, that we continue then to say Lord, I want to abstain from fleshly lusts, I want to obey you and love you because, truly, the Lord's path is the best path. So those things have been said A lot to unpack during these last couple of episodes. Hopefully we've seen truly the dark side, because we don't want to sugarcoat that it's not a good thing, something that has such a hold on our culture. But we also want to highlight that there truly is hope, hope found only in Christ, and hopefully these tips and tools might be able to help you equip somebody that you know in your life, or might be some tools that you need for your own life to walk in a way that'll be pleasing unto the Lord. With that being said, are all hearts and minds clear as before, right before we close?
Speaker 2:Yes, sir Minds clear. But can I just say this If anything that we have said sounds extreme, I think it doesn't sound extreme. As Jesus said if thy right, I offend thee, pluck it out. So if we say like, hey, you might want to make some changes, you might want to bring some things in your life, you might want to put your phone down, it does feel extreme if you're walking through something right now, like the guy who's like I'm not ready to get my phone and maybe you're not there. But I would say plugging your eye out is a little more extreme than putting your phone down. And so Jesus is pretty extreme when he talks about the things that will cause us to ruin our lives.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah, we're going through the sermon tonight on the mount at our church, so it's definitely something of significance that we have to keep in mind so well, since all hearts and minds now are clear. We thank you so much for joining us for this episode. If you have any follow-up commentary or questions, I know this topic is one that was a little bit different from what our normal repertoire, so to speak, was, so we do hope that it's definitely been helpful.
Speaker 1:And if you point somebody else in the direction of this episode, especially this third part because we did not rate this third part any type of special rating or anything definitely just trying to make sure to keep it as respectful as we can as we discuss some solutions and helps, but, as we've gone through the topic, it may be. If there's things that you'd like to add, email us or different perspectives you have, make sure you send us those messages. We're happy to be able to hear them and read through them as brothers, as we continue to grow in this area, as we try to grow closer to Christ. So we thank you for joining us for this episode and we look forward to you joining us next time.
